Universal Healthcare. Good Idea or Commie Plot?

[Hoopty]

Gun discussion split and move here:

2nd Amendment, what is infringement?

[flew-da-coup]

Okay here are comments about Canada's healthcare system by the incoming president of the CMA. This was a year and a half ago.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1042227/cma_head_says_canadas_healthcare_system_in_crisis_needs_change/index.html

And yes, the Doctors in canada are Gov'ment paid and are Gov employees. I believe I saw someone here say that they were not.
Here is another paper dated 6 months ago noting the "waiting list for care". It's hard to argue with the CMA, but I am sure you will.
http://ecmaj.com/cgi/rapidpdf/cmaj.081324v1.pdf

As for specialist care in Canada, well it doesn't look so great. If you have a serious health issue then you will be in trouble in Canada. What a great health care system.
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/08/20/cma-healthcare.html

I guess good healthcare is waiting 18 weeks for surgery and 10 weeks just for an MRI. I had a MRI just one day after the doctor ordered one last month. I should have been in Canada so I could have waited 10 weeks and have a better MRI expirence.
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/10/15/waittimes-fraser.html

This is just the tip of the "MOUNTIAN OF EVIDENCE". I could keep this up all day.

[griff61]

Okay here are comments about Canada's healthcare system by the incoming president of the CMA. This was a year and a half ago.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1042227/cma_head_says_canadas_healthcare_system_in_crisis_needs_change/index.html

And yes, the Doctors in canada are Gov'ment paid and are Gov employees. I believe I saw someone here say that they were not.
Here is another paper dated 6 months ago noting the "waiting list for care". It's hard to argue with the CMA, but I am sure you will.
http://ecmaj.com/cgi/rapidpdf/cmaj.081324v1.pdf

As for specialist care in Canada, well it doesn't look so great. If you have a serious health issue then you will be in trouble in Canada. What a great health care system.
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/08/20/cma-healthcare.html

I guess good healthcare is waiting 18 weeks for surgery and 10 weeks just for an MRI. I had a MRI just one day after the doctor ordered one last month. I should have been in Canada so I could have waited 10 weeks and have a better MRI expirence.
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/10/15/waittimes-fraser.html

This is just the tip of the "MOUNTIAN OF EVIDENCE". I could keep this up all day.

Doctors in private practice are not government employees anymore than doctors in the states who don't work in county hostpitals. Nor are doctors who work in private clinics. Are doctors who accept payment from Medicare or Medicaid government employees?

from your first article:
""No one I know wants to adopt a so-called American-style health system,"
and "while he advocated more choice in the private sector, Day said the ability to pay should never be a factor for any patient needing health care in Canada"

You might have wanted to read past the headline, he's advocating UK style health care.

Article #2
"Ouellet, a radiologist who owns and operates 5 medical imaging clinics"
"Ouellet also argued for creating a universal drug access program"
hint: he wants to add more benefits, not get rid of any

Article #3
"62 per cent of Canadians grade the overall quality of health-care services available to them and their families as an A (21 per cent) or B (41 per cent)"
That constitutes a majority of satisfied consumers. The main problem, as stated in the article, is that they need more family practice doctors in remote places, of which there are a bunch.


Article #4
"This was primarily due to an increase in the first waiting period, between seeing the general practitioner and attending a consultation with a specialist."
Again, a personnel problem. Sounds like an opportunity to start up a clinic.

In case you are unaware, this problem exists in the states as well, there is a massive shortage of nurses as well as private practice doctors. It will get steadily worse as the boomer generation drifts off into retirement. I had 2 months between a visit to my PCP and my Endocrinologist. It happens.

A mountain of evidence? Not so much.
They are more examples of problems that we also suffer here in the US.

[flew-da-coup]

Okay here are comments about Canada's healthcare system by the incoming president of the CMA. This was a year and a half ago.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1042227/cma_head_says_canadas_healthcare_system_in_crisis_needs_change/index.html

And yes, the Doctors in canada are Gov'ment paid and are Gov employees. I believe I saw someone here say that they were not.
Here is another paper dated 6 months ago noting the "waiting list for care". It's hard to argue with the CMA, but I am sure you will.
http://ecmaj.com/cgi/rapidpdf/cmaj.081324v1.pdf

As for specialist care in Canada, well it doesn't look so great. If you have a serious health issue then you will be in trouble in Canada. What a great health care system.
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/08/20/cma-healthcare.html

I guess good healthcare is waiting 18 weeks for surgery and 10 weeks just for an MRI. I had a MRI just one day after the doctor ordered one last month. I should have been in Canada so I could have waited 10 weeks and have a better MRI expirence.
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/10/15/waittimes-fraser.html

This is just the tip of the "MOUNTIAN OF EVIDENCE". I could keep this up all day.

Doctors in private practice are not government employees anymore than doctors in the states who don't work in county hostpitals. Nor are doctors who work in private clinics. Are doctors who accept payment from Medicare or Medicaid government employees?

from your first article:
""No one I know wants to adopt a so-called American-style health system,"
and "while he advocated more choice in the private sector, Day said the ability to pay should never be a factor for any patient needing health care in Canada"

You might have wanted to read past the headline, he's advocating UK style health care.

Article #2
"Ouellet, a radiologist who owns and operates 5 medical imaging clinics"
"Ouellet also argued for creating a universal drug access program"
hint: he wants to add more benefits, not get rid of any

Article #3
"62 per cent of Canadians grade the overall quality of health-care services available to them and their families as an A (21 per cent) or B (41 per cent)"
That constitutes a majority of satisfied consumers. The main problem, as stated in the article, is that they need more family practice doctors in remote places, of which there are a bunch.


Article #4
"This was primarily due to an increase in the first waiting period, between seeing the general practitioner and attending a consultation with a specialist."
Again, a personnel problem. Sounds like an opportunity to start up a clinic.

In case you are unaware, this problem exists in the states as well, there is a massive shortage of nurses as well as private practice doctors. It will get steadily worse as the boomer generation drifts off into retirement. I had 2 months between a visit to my PCP and my Endocrinologist. It happens.

A mountain of evidence? Not so much.
They are more examples of problems that we also suffer here in the US.

I read past the headlines and read all the articles. You obviously didn't or coose to ignore the points of each
article that pointed out the problems. I am done. You can live in a fantasy world, I choose to live in the reality.

[griff61]

I read past the headlines and read all the articles. You obviously didn't or coose to ignore the points of each
article that pointed out the problems. I am done. You can live in a fantasy world, I choose to live in the reality.

I prefer to discuss, using ,y own words, you seem to prefer to hit & run post and not respond to questions about your statements...please, tell me what I missed? You assert that the Canuck system has problems as if the US system is perfect. That simply isn't the case.

It's a shame you seem to think the US is incapable of providing for it's citizens as well or better than some 'weak' countries. I have more faith in my country. I think we could make a single payer system work much more efficiently and provide better care to all Americans than any other country on earth. Are we really ok with being out-done by Thailand?
The main reason we don't provide Universal Health care is because the insurance and pharmacy industries own our representatives.
What part of health care is truly capitalistic? Do you stop to shop around for the cheapest ER when an emergency arises? Is there somewhere else you can take your business? Do you really think medical care should only go to those who can pay the full cost of it? Because I can assure you, most people can't afford it. A recent, common operation my wife had ran up a bill of $78,000. Do you think your lifetime total of premium payments has reached that amount?

What is the advantage of paying up to 25% overhead to a middle man who actually provides no service at all?

[_Adam_]

What is the advantage of paying up to 25% overhead to a middle man who actually provides no service at all?

Actually, my middleman, BCBS has negotiated a significant discount for me.  For instance, if the Dr charges $10k for a procedure, my insurance company has already contracted with the Dr to reduce it to a negotiated price.  The last time, this discount was $7k off a $14k Orthopedic surgery.  I then only paid a $50 dollar co-pay and 20% of the $7K.  Yes, by Canadian standards, this was a lot of money out of pocket, but when you consider that I paid only my monthly premium $140 x 12 plus $1400 and $50 copay, I only paid $3130 for a 14k surgery.  But you can't really count all of the premiums against that one instance, so in reality, the direct out of pocket for that surgery was much less.

So in my case, that middleman provided a few services...  first, it provided a rather large discount off the total bill, second it provided a guarantee to the hospital that it would receive compensation for treating me, and third, it served as a watchdog to the hospital so I wasn't over charged or given services that were not reasonable.

[Winterfire2008]

Wow. To rely on  an insurance go between to negotiate a lower prices with doctors and hospitals while those that don't have as good insurance or no insurance at all pay full price.  Wouldn't it have been great if the price was set right to begin with?

[griff61]

What is the advantage of paying up to 25% overhead to a middle man who actually provides no service at all?

Actually, my middleman, BCBS has negotiated a significant discount for me.  For instance, if the Dr charges $10k for a procedure, my insurance company has already contracted with the Dr to reduce it to a negotiated price.  The last time, this discount was $7k off a $14k Orthopedic surgery.  I then only paid a $50 dollar co-pay and 20% of the $7K.  Yes, by Canadian standards, this was a lot of money out of pocket, but when you consider that I paid only my monthly premium $140 x 12 plus $1400 and $50 copay, I only paid $3130 for a 14k surgery.  But you can't really count all of the premiums against that one instance, so in reality, the direct out of pocket for that surgery was much less.

So in my case, that middleman provided a few services...  first, it provided a rather large discount off the total bill, second it provided a guarantee to the hospital that it would receive compensation for treating me, and third, it served as a watchdog to the hospital so I wasn't over charged or given services that were not reasonable.

If you have employer provided health insurance, like I do, the employer portion is normally 4 or 5 times what you're portion is. In my case,  I pay $100 per paycheck for me & my son and my employer pays the other $400 for HMO coverage. That comes to around $1080 a month for two people or $540 each.

When you break down the per capita cost of the Canadian system, your premium would be $240 with no other out of pocket costs. My son's and mine would be $480.

The other services are for the insurance company's benefit or the hospital's benefit. Not yours, even though you're the one paying the premiums.

[_Adam_]

What is the advantage of paying up to 25% overhead to a middle man who actually provides no service at all?

Actually, my middleman, BCBS has negotiated a significant discount for me.  For instance, if the Dr charges $10k for a procedure, my insurance company has already contracted with the Dr to reduce it to a negotiated price.  The last time, this discount was $7k off a $14k Orthopedic surgery.  I then only paid a $50 dollar co-pay and 20% of the $7K.  Yes, by Canadian standards, this was a lot of money out of pocket, but when you consider that I paid only my monthly premium $140 x 12 plus $1400 and $50 copay, I only paid $3130 for a 14k surgery.  But you can't really count all of the premiums against that one instance, so in reality, the direct out of pocket for that surgery was much less.

So in my case, that middleman provided a few services...  first, it provided a rather large discount off the total bill, second it provided a guarantee to the hospital that it would receive compensation for treating me, and third, it served as a watchdog to the hospital so I wasn't over charged or given services that were not reasonable.

If you have employer provided health insurance, like I do, the employer portion is normally 4 or 5 times what you're portion is. In my case,  I pay $100 per paycheck for me & my son and my employer pays the other $400 for HMO coverage. That comes to around $1080 a month for two people or $540 each.

When you break down the per capita cost of the Canadian system, your premium would be $240 with no other out of pocket costs. My son's and mine would be $480.

The other services are for the insurance company's benefit or the hospital's benefit. Not yours, even though you're the one paying the premiums.

We all now there is no such thing as a free lunch.  Can you tell me what is sacrificed to keep the Canadian price so low?

[_Adam_]

Wow. To rely on  an insurance go between to negotiate a lower prices with doctors and hospitals while those that don't have as good insurance or no insurance at all pay full price.  Wouldn't it have been great if the price was set right to begin with?

In effect, that is what the Canadian government does.  They are a a middleman between the citizens and the providers.

I would like prices to be set, and, through my middleman, my prices are set.  Who is to determine what price is right?

Do you honestly think that our government is best able to decide what health care goods and services are to be provided, or do you think that decision is best left to the doctor that you have established a long standing relationship with.  My children's pediatrician has known them from birth and has provided a level of care FAR above what I ever could have expected compared to what I receive under military and VA health care systems.

Our government is rapidly falling apart due to the crushing weight of all of the debt it is incurring.  I honestly think that social security will not exist by the time I am ready to retire.  Do you really think the gov't is the best institution to provide for our needs...  I think not.

[griff61]

Wow. To rely on  an insurance go between to negotiate a lower prices with doctors and hospitals while those that don't have as good insurance or no insurance at all pay full price.  Wouldn't it have been great if the price was set right to begin with?

In effect, that is what the Canadian government does.  They are a a middleman between the citizens and the providers.

I would like prices to be set, and, through my middleman, my prices are set.  Who is to determine what price is right?

Do you honestly think that our government is best able to decide what health care goods and services are to be provided, or do you think that decision is best left to the doctor that you have established a long standing relationship with.  My children's pediatrician has known them from birth and has provided a level of care FAR above what I ever could have expected compared to what I receive under military and VA health care systems.

Our government is rapidly falling apart due to the crushing weight of all of the debt it is incurring.  I honestly think that social security will not exist by the time I am ready to retire.  Do you really think the gov't is the best institution to provide for our needs...  I think not.

I'm not discussing the VA or military health care, but the Canadian single payer insurance system. Although I would definitely rate the VA way above military.
Do you think that if the entity paying the bills changed your pediatrician would suddenly become inadequate?
I'm assuming that you aren't arrogant enough to assume that simply because a doctor practices in a different country they are somehow inferior. So I'm not following your trail between who pays the bills and who provides the service. In fact, in a single payer system, even the dirt-poorest of families would have access to the that same, great pediatrician.

What part of the government is falling apart? Seems a bit of an alarmist thing to say. Perhaps if we hadn't been sold down the river to corporations for 20 or so years we might be in a better position now. As far as debt goes, eliminating insurance companies from health care would put something on the order of $1 trillion back into the economy to do other things.

[Winterfire2008]

Ahh the assumption has been made that most have been able to establish long standing relationships with doctors and hospitals.  Well what about those that don't?  Is it unreasonable to expect the same quality of care from a doctor whether you are a long time patient or a new one?

I know that our government isn't all it should be.  Yet those of us who work in Metrology in the United States rely on the US government every time a traceable calibration is completed.   Do we not trust the US Government to take care of National Standards?  If you don't, why work in Metrology?

[_Adam_]

Ahh the assumption has been made that most have been able to establish long standing relationships with doctors and hospitals.  Well what about those that don't?  Is it unreasonable to expect the same quality of care from a doctor whether you are a long time patient or a new one?

I make no assumptions of what relationships are with other people and their doctors.  I know what I have been able to establish and I merely compare that to the care I received in the AF and now through the VA.  I pay directly for my privatized care at a much higher rate than I do for my socialized care.  Maybe it is just a coincidence that my private care is drastically better than my public care.  I think there are a few vets in the south that received colonoscopies with dirty equipment that will probably agree with me.

My private orthopedic doctor lives within two minutes of me and I have his home phone number.  He came in to the hospital to perform a surgery for my daughter on father's day even though he was not on call.  My kid's pediatrician also gave us his home number and has repeatedly gone above and beyond the call of duty to make sure that my children are well cared for to include seeing both of my children for the same illness while only charging us a co-pay for one of them.

I do make the assumption that any managed care scheme is going to short change the quality of health care I receive.  I gladly pay more for a PPO than paying less for the HMO that I am also offered.

I know that our government isn't all it should be.  Yet those of us who work in Metrology in the United States rely on the US government every time a traceable calibration is completed.   Do we not trust the US Government to take care of National Standards?  If you don't, why work in Metrology?

Relying upon a scientist to maintain a national level standard is a completely different ball of yarn than relying upon the congress and the executive branch to serve the best interest of their constituents.

I am a proud veteran from a long line of veterans, so I am first in line to wave Old Glory.  The problem lies in our elected officials not serving the best interest of their constituents.  There is no money in dorking up a national standard, but there is money and power associated with controlling tax revenue earmarked for health care.

[_Adam_]

I'm not discussing the VA or military health care, but the Canadian single payer insurance system. Although I would definitely rate the VA way above military.

I would rate both as pretty poor compared to what I receive now.  And with my knee experience in all three systems, I can say without a doubt I'd rather pay more for a private system.

Do you think that if the entity paying the bills changed your pediatrician would suddenly become inadequate?

I am not talking about an adequate level of care.  I receive care that is well above adequate.  If you are happy with an adequate health care system I can see why you are advocating for Canada's system.  Although there are people who will argue that the Canadian system is not adequate, I'll give you that much.

I don't think my doctor's ability would become less adequate given a change in nationality.  What I am arguing is that with a single payer system, the price becomes fixed and as a result, there is no motivation to go above and beyond what is mandated by your government.  The only things I want dictating my level of care is my doctor and my willingness to pay for his/her service.

I'm assuming that you aren't arrogant enough to assume that simply because a doctor practices in a different country they are somehow inferior. So I'm not following your trail between who pays the bills and who provides the service. In fact, in a single payer system, even the dirt-poorest of families would have access to the that same, great pediatrician.

The dirt-poorest of families have access to him now.

What part of the government is falling apart? Seems a bit of an alarmist thing to say. Perhaps if we hadn't been sold down the river to corporations for 20 or so years we might be in a better position now. As far as debt goes, eliminating insurance companies from health care would put something on the order of $1 trillion back into the economy to do other things.

Telling me that we have been sold down the river to corporations blows your whole argument out of the water.  Who do you think sold us down that river?  Could it possibly be the same politicians that you want to entrust with deciding which services to pay for?  You can't blast the politicians in one sentence and then claim them superior in the next.  You can't have your cake and eat it to.

[griff61]

Where to begin. You really need to stay on target and not contruct arguments no one is making just so you can respond the way you like.
#1
Quote from: griff61 on Today at 13:26:41
I'm not discussing the VA or military health care, but the Canadian single payer insurance system. Although I would definitely rate the VA way above military.

I would rate both as pretty poor compared to what I receive now.  And with my knee experience in all three systems, I can say without a doubt I'd rather pay more for a private system.

Moot point, I pointed out I'm not discussing the VA or military care.

#2
Do you think that if the entity paying the bills changed your pediatrician would suddenly become inadequate?

I am not talking about an adequate level of care.  I receive care that is well above adequate.

Again, not what I asked or what I implied.

#3

What I am arguing is that with a single payer system, the price becomes fixed and as a result, there is no motivation to go above and beyond what is mandated by your government.

Citation?
I have been treated, in the Canadian system, by doctors ranging from family care to neurosurgeons, they were all well above adequate. The care in Canada is excellent actually. You just finished arguing that your insurance provider fixed prices for your surgery, now you're saying that fixed prices lead to poor service?

#4
...in a single payer system, even the dirt-poorest of families would have access to the that same, great pediatrician.

The dirt-poorest of families have access to him now.

So tell me, does he work for free or are you just trying to be clever?

#5
What part of the government is falling apart? Seems a bit of an alarmist thing to say. Perhaps if we hadn't been sold down the river to corporations for 20 or so years we might be in a better position now. As far as debt goes, eliminating insurance companies from health care would put something on the order of $1 trillion back into the economy to do other things.

Telling me that we have been sold down the river to corporations blows your whole argument out of the water...etc etc

Which part of that response pertained to anything I asked? Again with the straw man argument, please point out where I praised politicians. Do you know how the Canadian system works? What are you basing your pronouncements on, because it is obviously not personal experience with single payer. The Canadian system simply eliminates the profit motive. It doesn't magically turn doctors into malingering scam artists any more than your insurance does it to your own dear doctors.

I would invite you to look though the Interim Report on the state of health care system in Canada http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/1/parlbus/commbus/senate/com-e/pdf-e/interim-soci-e.pdf

page 98
Myth: The Canada Health Act prohibits the private sector from playing a role in the provision
of health care services.

Reality: The public administration criterion of the Canada Health Act relates to the
administration of provincial insurance plans for medically necessary services, not to the
delivery of insured health services.