Universal Healthcare. Good Idea or Commie Plot?

[griff61]

Griff,....

Duckbutta can't figure out why someone might actually live by their principles when there's money to be made, what a shocker.

[Duckbutta]

Griff,

What principles are you not comprimising by refusing to work for a government contractor? I honestly don't see what you're getting at.

And what about the rest of the post? Your lack of response could easily lead one to believe that maybe you are finally starting to come around and beginning to embrace the principles of our Founders. That would be encouraging. Freedom loving Americans that value individual liberty and limited government are becoming more rare in this cradle to grave Age of Entitlement and we would gladly welcome you into the fold.

[Smokey]

Just my two cents,

I would have to agree with Duck when he said

I don't have any problems with the government contracting out certain jobs to the private sector. To answer your question, yes, I am doing the exact same job that I did in the military. Does the fact that I no longer wear the uniform make me any less capable of doing the job?

When I got out of the AF, they had finished the A76 study and began outsourcing the Labs. I hired on to one of those Labs happily as it gave me a job. I don't get the point that I shouldn't work a job that used to be military as Griff said

I don't think the government should be paying civilians to do military jobs that troops used to do either.

. Duck is right, the Lab I went to had a total of 17 techs whereas before it had a manning level of 60. The contractor provided all benefits and what not so the cost to the government was substancially lower considering it no longer had to provide training, housing, medical, blah,blah,blah and so on and so on. I have been working different contracts for the past 10 years and feel I have only improved on my job knowledge and experience level albeit not wearing a uniform anymore.

As for the Health care issue I am kind of lost in the middle somewhere. I would love to see those 45 million without insurance receive good quality health care and I would love to see those under-insured people get to a much more acceptable level of insurance such as what I receive.
I would also love to not have to pay anymore taxes than the average person. I don't agree with taxing the wealthy simply because they have more money so they  need to give back thus the redistribution of wealth. This I believe alienates people from the drive that they had to make all that money in the first place. I believe more and more we are becoming a nation of entitlements while barking out loud this is what America should be. I know we here in America have a broken system, we pay more than any other country for Healthcare yet we still dont have the same level of Healthcare as a whole. I mean sure we have quality healthcare of course but not everyone is privvy. This saddens me of course but it does not mean we should go and triple or quadruple our national debt in less than 10 years in the name of giving fair and substantial healthcare to the less fortunate. At least not when the so called less fortunate is a gray area due to many Americans taking advantage of the system and bleeding dry every program they can.

Many single moms really need help, many children need help I agree and would be ok with providing that hand up in certain situations. What I dont agree with is the lazy American sitting on the couch getting food stamps, rent and utilities subsidized, monthly checks, tax breaks, and because of the hard work they put in doing absolutely nothing to better themselves what we are going to do is give them more hand outs so they will what? Work that much harder at staying exactly where they are doing nothing to better themselves!

I can be ok with giving a hand up if I thought the help was going to the genuinely needy and not the vast majority of people preying on a flawed system and the hard work of others. I think if we had a process that more thouroughly vetted the receiver of such entitlements to verify legitimate need and not simply just signing up whoever more people would be ok with this. I have seen families on welfare where the mother doesn't work, has 3 kids and gets her rent paid, utilities paid, monthly food stamps, free healthcare and they are all doing just fine especially since the father does work but they divorced so they can still recieive all the entitlements on a monthly basis and still remains at home but has a PO Box so the welfare office does not know. So not only are they taking advantage of all those social services but he is making a good living on the side. Now if we can create a better vetting process to elimnate theses kind of people which give truly needy families a bad name if you will I think I could feel a little more easy about a hand up.

John Wooden once said "The worst thing you could ever do for loved ones is something they could and should do for themselves"

So here we are, what kind of solotuions can we find?
FOR one I believe in a flat tax, no higher or lower depending on salary. Yes the more you make the more you will pay but at least everyone would be giving the same share of their hard earned money. Now of course this won't ever work unless we get a grip on all the different loop holes that are in the tax laws which allow so many to take advantage of and not pay their fare share. I know that probably opend up a can of worms but hey what can you do.

I think if corporations have more than 50% of their workforce in foreign countries they should not be allowed to be a U.S. company and should be subject to to all import duties, taxes and what have you. I think we should not only be making it beneficial to keep jobs here through certain tax breaks and whatever else we can do but also make it non-beneficial to outsource American jobs with tax hikes.

I think Healthcare needs to be reform and regulated but with caution, many believe without high profit levels that research or quality of research would suffer. I think we should regulate to a level that Americans can receive more affordable healthcar but not so much that it alleviates the drive for profit of the company and the researchers doing the work. By simply regulating and controlling costs you would help the uninsured and under-insured by my making it more available maybe even with some subsidies available to those at lower income level. I think if we nationalize Healthcare we would be paying way to much as we already are but then we would be stuck in a situation where our government and all the idiocy that involves will only have one more national program to screw beyond belief.

So basically I am in favor of Healthcare reform through regulation and cost control but not simply dolling out a trillion dollars so that someone else's Ideal of the American way can cost me my hard earned dollars simply because I was willing to go out and work hard for myself.

Wow I have just babbled on quite a bit, sorry if I jumped around too much I am not the best at putting thoughts down into words. Must be the HADD

[griff61]

Just my two cents,

I would have to agree with Duck when he said

I don't have any problems with the government contracting out certain jobs to the private sector. To answer your question, yes, I am doing the exact same job that I did in the military. Does the fact that I no longer wear the uniform make me any less capable of doing the job?

I don't have a problem with all contractors, just the two I mentioned.

As for the Health care issue I am kind of lost in the middle somewhere. I would love to see those 45 million without insurance receive good quality health care and I would love to see those under-insured people get to a much more acceptable level of insurance such as what I receive.
I would also love to not have to pay anymore taxes than the average person.

Makes perfect sense, as far as taxes go, the smart way to do a single payer system is to replace the current, inflated, premium system with a universal, nearly flat rate to everyone. Not in addition, but a replacement. We could also (like we should do with Social Security) make those funds untouchable for anything but their intended purpose.

The method being proposed, as far as I can tell, is as bad an idea as Medicare part D was. It is simply finding a way for the government to pay a middle man to provide coverage for a profit. There's no way to control the costs in that case. The upsurge in health care costs doesn't lie with the providers, it is in the middle man's profit taking.

What I dont agree with is the lazy American sitting on the couch getting food stamps, rent and utilities subsidized, monthly checks, tax breaks, and because of the hard work they put in doing absolutely nothing to better themselves what we are going to do is give them more hand outs so they will what? Work that much harder at staying exactly where they are doing nothing to better themselves!

I can't imagine anyone thinking that is a good idea, unfortunately, those are the ones who actually have coverage (Medicaid). I would encourage you to also get on your State & Local people, because access to all those things you listed are decided at that level, here in AZ it's the DES.

So here we are, what kind of solotuions can we find?
FOR one I believe in a flat tax, no higher or lower depending on salary. Yes the more you make the more you will pay but at least everyone would be giving the same share of their hard earned money. Now of course this won't ever work unless we get a grip on all the different loop holes that are in the tax laws which allow so many to take advantage of and not pay their fare share. I know that probably opend up a can of worms but hey what can you do.

I agree, as long as it is on all income regardless of source, including capital gains.
The estate tax is obscene, in my opinion.

We could have a tax code that's a single page long.

I think if corporations have more than 50% of their workforce in foreign countries they should not be allowed to be a U.S. company and should be subject to to all import duties, taxes and what have you. I think we should not only be making it beneficial to keep jobs here through certain tax breaks and whatever else we can do but also make it non-beneficial to outsource American jobs with tax hikes.

We'd need to kill all those great free trade and most favored nation deals...I wouldn't shed a tear over them.

I think Healthcare needs to be reform and regulated but with caution, many believe without high profit levels that research or quality of research would suffer.

You might be surprised to find that most medical research is federally funded. Many of the big discoveries have been due to work in MASH and Military & VA recovery programs. I'm not sure that replacing the health insurance industry would affect pharmaceuticals or research hospitals too much, mainly because they are funded from other sources.

[Duckbutta]

Griff,

First you said this:
"I don't think the government should be paying civilians to do military jobs that troops used to do either. Does that describe yours? I've refused job offers from KBR and Halliburton on that basis alone."

Then you said this:
"I don't have a problem with all contractors, just the two I mentioned."

Which is it?

[_Adam_]

Show me where I've suggested taking anything by force and you might have a point...

This is interesting.  Follow me for just a second...    Here in the US, a citizen would likely go to prison and face penalties for not paying taxes correct?  If we implemented Canada's general taxation funded single payer system, then an individual could choose between paying taxes, or going to jail and face penalties correct?

This is definately taking something by force, granted it will be after the fact, but force will eventually be used.

... as it stands your arguing with yourself, this country is (supposedly) a republic, majority rule is the way it goes.

Unless the majority rule is imposing the tyranny of the majority.  The majority cannot enact rules that are tyrannical in nature.  This is why, despite the many attempts of the majority, that gay and lesbian marriage will eventually be recognized by all states.  It is a civil rights issue that just because the majority opposes it doesn't nullify the civil rights of the minority.

We used to function as a republic, where people voted according to issues and actually went below headlines when they thought about problems.
We are effectively a parliamentary system now, there are only 2 to choose from and we can't get beyond our own provincial party pettiness.
George Washington was right.

I agree.  What's to stop us from creating a viable third party?  I am prepared to vote libertarian if presented with a viable candidate.  In all of my adult voting life it has been the lesser of the two evils and I hope for the day when I vote for someone based on their actual merit without consideration to the ills of the opposing candidate.

Unless you actually respond with a plan that addresses what I have asked about, namely skyrocketing health care costs and universal coverage, feel free to debate yourself.

That is funny.  My plan to address the issues is the free market. I honestly don't know that any plan will reduce health care costs.  In Canada's system the government is engaging in a form of price fixing.  One could successfully argue that we have not seen a free market in a very long time.  In today's world, we point to the existing market and claim "this is the scourge that free markets bring us" yet we are absolutely not in the presence of a free market.  Government intervention does work in certain scenarios, but not all.  I am certain that we shall soon learn under no false pertenses what 'too much government intervention' is going to cause.  Abuses in the medicare system couldn't exist without government intervention.  Under an actual free market, the consumer is the powerful party.  Such is the nature of the free market...  if provider "A" charges too much, the consumers in the free market are free to seek services from the other providers. 

[flew-da-coup]

I am bored with this thread. So I will not post on the topic. I will agree to disagree with all.

[OlDave]

I am bored with this thread.

I couldn't have said it better myself!

[Winterfire2008]

It is time for a medical joke

A nice, calm and respectable lady went into the pharmacy, walked up to the pharmacist, looked straight into his eyes, and said

"I would like to buy some cyanide! "

The pharmacist asked "Why in the world do you need cyanide?"

The lady replied, "I need it to poison my husband. "

The pharmacist's eyes got big and he exclaimed, "Lord have mercy! I can't give you cyanide to kill your husband.  That's against the law! I'll lose my license! They'll throw both of us in jail! All kinds of bad things will happen.  Absolutely not! You CANNOT have any cyanide!

The lady reached into her purse and pulled out a picture of her husband in bed with the pharmacist's wife.

The pharmacist looked at the picture and replied , "Well now, that's different. You didn't tell me you had a prescription."

[griff61]

I honestly don't know that any plan will reduce health care costs. 

Fair enough.

[Duckbutta]

Griff?.....Griff?

I can't hear you. Please remove your foot from your mouth.

[griff61]

I am bored with this thread. So I will not post on the topic. I will agree to disagree with all.

Happy Birthday anyway

[flew-da-coup]

I am bored with this thread. So I will not post on the topic. I will agree to disagree with all.

Happy Birthday anyway

Thanks. I needed that. It's been a tough day.