Universal Healthcare. Good Idea or Commie Plot?

[_Adam_]

Where to begin. You really need to stay on target and not contruct arguments no one is making just so you can respond the way you like.

I used systems such as the VA and the military as examples of a US based single payer system that has, by and large, failed to be adequate for me and my experiences.  I am sorry if my experiences are inconvenient to your argument.

You have admitted that Canadians have and continue to purchase additional coverage and also use US facilities.  Those two facts alone demonstrate flaws in the single payer system.  If the single payer (which is a misnomer by the way since the tax payers a lumped together to form a single payer) system is adequate, why do Canadians flock to the US to receive services that should be provided by Canadian doctors - on their own dime I might add?  Why would any Canadian waste money buying supplemental health insurance if the services provided in a single payer system were adequate in the first place?

When you say that only 70% of the US populace is covered you are ignoring programs like medi-cal and the Oregon Health Plan and other state sponsored health care programs.

I wasn't trying to be snide by saying the dirt-poorest of families has access to my doctor.  They do have adequate access to an adequate doctor.  But all of that is subjective which is why we have such a spirited debate here.  My doctor just happens to provide a quality of care commensurate to the fees he charges.

My insurance also does not fix a price, they just negotiate a discount.

You have yet to answer my question about free riders.  What do you propose we do to prevent those who choose to purposely avoid paying health care tax.  Or those who have 12 kids just because they can, and heck, it doesn't cost them anything so why not?

I have never said our (US) system was perfect.  I am just giving you reasons why I like it.  I think I am done.  You asked for an opinion and then berate me for providing it.  You have failed to even consider any argument that others, and myself, have posted here.  Thank you for the spirited debate, however, my head is sore from beating it against the wall.

[griff61]

I used systems such as the VA and the military as examples of a US based single payer system that has, by and large, failed to be adequate for me and my experiences.

Both those systems are not single payer systems, because they also PROVIDE the service. You continue to argue against socialized health care, which is lovely, but not relevant. I'm talking about THE CANADIAN SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM

You have admitted that Canadians have and continue to purchase additional coverage and also use US facilities.  Those two facts alone demonstrate flaws in the single payer system.  If the single payer (which is a misnomer by the way since the tax payers a lumped together to form a single payer) system is adequate, why do Canadians flock to the US to receive services that should be provided by Canadian doctors - on their own dime I might add?  Why would any Canadian waste money buying supplemental health insurance if the services provided in a single payer system were adequate in the first place?

Again, the THE CANADIAN SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM is insurance, not care.

When you say that only 70% of the US populace is covered you are ignoring programs like medi-cal and the Oregon Health Plan and other state sponsored health care programs.

The 45 million plus uninsured are people not covered by and insurance, that would inclube Medicare and Medicaid. The reason they aren't covered is because they earn too much to qualify for Medicaid, which is what funds state plans, or they are unemployed, like some of the 645,000 who became so this past week.

I wasn't trying to be snide by saying the dirt-poorest of families has access to my doctor.  They do have adequate access to an adequate doctor.  But all of that is subjective which is why we have such a spirited debate here.  My doctor just happens to provide a quality of care commensurate to the fees he charges.

Or rather, the fees your insurance will allow him to charge.
In a single payer system, thay'd have the ability to use yours too. Just because they earn less than you, doesn't mean they should be treated by anyone less expert than you. Unlees, of course, you like the idea of oligarchies, in which case there's not much point in the conversation at all.

My insurance also does not fix a price, they just negotiate a discount.

You're intentionally misleading, insurance companies publish rates usually every year, there's no individual negotiating of prices. Individual providers either accept the new rates or stop accepting that insurance. Happens all the time, my endocrinologist has a list of at least a dozen.

You have yet to answer my question about free riders.  What do you propose we do to prevent those who choose to purposely avoid paying health care tax.  Or those who have 12 kids just because they can, and heck, it doesn't cost them anything so why not?

They would be dealt with like all tax evaders, which, by the way, is illegal even in Canada. The key term, from the Canadian Sente report below as well as the Canada Health Act is "medically necessary services"
Hows the US system dealing with octo-mom?

You have failed to even consider any argument that others, and myself, have posted here. 

Please, feel free to repeat something specifically concerning THE CANADIAN SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM that I have failed to consider.
It seems there is a rather large amount of confusion stemming from the fact that some folks think that a single payer system is the same as socialized medicine. It's not. Rather than spending your time banging your head against a wall, perhaps you should actually read up on what the CHA actually does? I've provided several citations.
I would have thought that the quote from "The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology" would have helped clear that up for you, I'll repeat it in case you overlooked it:
"The public administration criterion of the Canada Health Act relates to the administration of provincial insurance plans for medically necessary services, not to the delivery of insured health services."

If you'd like to take issue with how the provinces run their delivery programs, that's fine too, and we can do that in yet another thread, but I'm actually trying to discuss THE CANADIAN SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM or if you prefer, the CHA

[_Adam_]

Why would Canadians purchase supplemental insurance if the state provided insurance was adequate?

Why would Canadians come to the US and see US doctors using their own supplemental insurance and paying out of their own pocket if the Canadian Heath Insurance provided for coverage of all of their needs back in Canada?

[griff61]

Why would Canadians purchase supplemental insurance if the state provided insurance was adequate?

Why would Canadians come to the US and see US doctors using their own supplemental insurance and paying out of their own pocket if the Canadian Heath Insurance and advanced health care services were available and adequate?

Did you read anything I posted?

Read through the last citation, it's a 130 page report that answers every one of your questions. It will also explain what the CHA does, and doesn't do. Jump straight to page 93 where the myth vs fact section starts if you like.

Why do Americans buy their precriptions in Mexico and Canada and go on 'medical vacations' to Thailand (and Canada) if the care here so so great and wonderful? Why do Americans along northern border states try to get provincial health insurance cards?
Because they can?

Why do keep going on and on about SERVICE providers when the discussion is about INSURANCE providers?

[Winterfire2008]

I get it!!!!!  Seems the current thing is to diss the Canadian health system.  Well I read the stats and dang if Griff aint right.  People live longer in Canada than in the US.  The infant mortality is lower than the US. Overall health costs are lower than the US... seems to me Canada is doing something right.  I also know that US citizen flock to Canada to get prescriptions filled way cheaper than the US.

I read story after story of health care denied by US insurance companies because they don't want to pay for new drugs for cancer or for having an organ transplants because it is considered experimental. That's assuming of course you can stay healthy enough to stay on the transplant lists.

Where do US citizens go when they want the best and cheapest care.  Thailand!!!!!! Surgical procedures cost one tenth of what they do in the US. Other countries are cashing in on this too.   hmmmm a whole new industry called medical tourism.

[Duckbutta]

Adam,

Griff is from Canada, and judging from his posts, he obviously doesn't value our Founding Fathers' guiding principles of individual liberty and limited government as much as you or I. He trumpets his belief in Big Government and espouses principles that have made Canada the mediocre country that it is.

I think you are wasting your time in trying to persuade him of the moral superiority of liberty.

[griff61]

Adam,

Griff is from Canada, and judging from his posts, he obviously doesn't value our founders' guiding principles of individual liberty and limited government as much as you or I. He trumpets his belief in Big Government and espouses principles that have made Canada the mediocre country that it is.

I think you are wasting your time in trying to persuade him of the moral superiority of liberty.

You're still as funny as ever, and just as irrelevant, vapid and derogatory.

Perhaps you should get out of the govenment trough every once in a while and visit a foreign country. In any case, it's not good form to bite the hand that feeds you. It's actually sad that while you earn your living off the government, you like to pretend to have thais pathological aversion to anything concerning it. Is the cognitive dissonance deafening in there?

A little something from the founders.

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism."

George Washington, Farewell Address, September 19, 1796

or

"All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride legitimately, by the grace of God."

Thomas Jefferson, June 24, 1826

and

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclination, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

John Adams, December 4, 1770

[Duckbutta]

Griff,

You seem to think that there is an inherent contradiction with my core beliefs and my working at an Air Force lab. To the contrary, I am actually involved in the support of a legitimate function of government. Namely, national defense.

Nice quotes, but don't you think Marx would be a little more in tune with your beliefs? Like this one, "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

That's a neat trick, disguising yourself as an advocate of liberty by cloaking yourself with the words of our Founders. I'm not fooled.

[flew-da-coup]

 I do agree that the US health care system needs some repairs and has it's problems. I believe the problem here in the US is the cost of health insurance. The cost has sky rocketed since the mid 90's. I think one area that would help lower the cost is deporting all the illegal immigrants. Illegal's have managed to shut down 5 California hospitals by using them and not paying their bill. The ER's cannot turn them away for care. The hospitals in turn have to try to recoup the loss through raising prices. In turn insurance cost went up. Canada does not have to deal with the level of illegal's that the US has too so they are not effected by the huge rise in cost. I believe that we need to maintain the private care industry and not go the way of socialist health care. 

[griff61]

I'm not fooled.

Personal attack removed
-Hoopty

[griff61]

I do agree that the US health care system needs some repairs and has it's problems. I believe the problem here in the US is the cost of health insurance. The cost has sky rocketed since the mid 90's. I think one area that would help lower the cost is deporting all the illegal immigrants. Illegal's have managed to shut down 5 California hospitals by using them and not paying their bill. The ER's cannot turn them away for care. The hospitals in turn have to try to recoup the loss through raising prices. In turn insurance cost went up. Canada does not have to deal with the level of illegal's that the US has too so they are not effected by the huge rise in cost. I believe that we need to maintain the private care industry and not go the way of socialist health care. 

You're right, one of the big problems here is that illgals do use the system to their advantage. Hospitals are required by law to treat anyone, up to a point, regardless of whether they can pay or not. Along with those 10 million or so illegals all over the country, there are 4 times as many Americans.

The problem with healsth insurancve, though, is that is isn't dependant on Hopital costs, it's based on profit margins that go to a middle man that provides no added value. Think of it like going out to buy a car and thwing in a 50% surcharge for the teller at your bank to transfer your money to the dealer. The Canadian single payer system doesn't replace  private providers, it removes insurance companies. It simply performs the payment operation without a profit motive.

[Duckbutta]

Griff,

You treat profit as if it's a dirty word. Free market capitalism, with all it's flaws, is still far superior to any other system in dealing with the allocation of goods and services. It has allowed America to prosper into the greatest country the world has ever known. And that includes Canada. That is why you and millions of others stream across our borders every year.

[Hoopty]

Griff61,

I've removed your previous post as it was a personal attack on another member.  This will be how I handle any further violations.

[Duckbutta]

Hoopty,

That's a common tactic used by liberals. When confronted with irrefutable logic and an indefensible position they resort to ad-hominem personal attacks. Notice that he didn't address the content of the post.

[jimmyc]

I think one area that would help lower the cost is deporting all the illegal immigrants. Illegal's have managed to shut down 5 California hospitals by using them and not paying their bill.

You're right, one of the big problems here is that illgals do use the system to their advantage. Hospitals are required by law to treat anyone, up to a point, regardless of whether they can pay or not. Along with those 10 million or so illegals all over the country, there are 4 times as many Americans.

wow this has become an episode of the lou dobbs show.  problem is emergency care costs 3-4 times more the regular dr visits( even the former president joked that everyone has access to healthcare "its called emergency rooms". ) also, like it or not, the children of these "illegals" are US citizens according to the constitution.
http://www.fixourhealthcare.ca.gov/index.php/facts/more/6771/
californias answer to healthcare.