Military vs Civilian labs?

[mooshde]

What is the world of PMEL like outside the military? :?  I'll be separating from the military in about a year and want to get back into the lab, but I have no experience with cal labs outside of the military.   I've been out of PMEL for about 2 years, so I've been watching this site to keep up with what's going on in the community.   Are there any of you experienced people who could tell me what its like on the outside?  What is the difference between a private lab and a military lab.   I'm hoping to use your insights to decide where I'll be happiest, with a private company or civil service at a military lab.   Just a little info about me, 7 yrs experience mostly in K3/K4 (especially TACAN) but I've worked on just about everything in a Type IIB lab, I loved troubleshooting, repairing, training techs, helping other techs with their equipment, and working on unique equipment (you learn something new every-time).   Any thoughts?  Thanks.

[skolito]

Paperwork,paperwork and lets see more paperwork.
Unless its an accredited cal then its even more paperwork than that

[flew-da-coup]

Paperwork,paperwork and lets see more paperwork.
Unless its an accredited cal then its even more paperwork than that

I think you have pretty much summed it up. LOL.

[ck454ss]

Dont forget paperwork-"What are you going to do for Career Development?"-"Oh you want to go to that training class-ok"-"Sorry we dont have money to send you"-"Your not going to get a good raise because you havent done any career development"-paperwork, paperwork, paperwork.

[skolito]

And dont forget to keep the paperwork for a min of 7 years

[USMCPMEL]

First off is there a specific area of the country you would like to live? That will be a huge part of your decision right there. I am not sure what the pay would be like as a civilian working at a military lab. As a Marine I did not see any civilians doing calibrations. We had a tech rep that was there to help you if you had any problems but for the life of me I never remember that guy doing ANYTHING!! Also another thing no one seems to have mentioned here is that a lot of the time when you are working in a civilian lab like Transcat or Davis inotek you are on the road alot. I MEAN ALOT!! If you do not mind that then its not a big deal you get to stay at semi nice hotels and get your meals paid for and some places offer per diem so if you are willing to pay for the stuff up front and get reimbursed later you can actually make money. I was getting $115 a night. Me and a guy from the shop shared a room we were out of town 5 days (so 4 nights) $460 the room cost me $120 ( half of the $60 a night) and I spent $90 on food ( since you are out of town all your meals are paid for)
So it cost me $210 and I made $250 for the week. That was on the cheap though some guys won't share a room and some guys like to go out to fancy restaurants ( Plus I do not drink beer so no beer expenses for me) Just to give you some ideas of what's going on out here in the real world outside of the military. Everyplace is different make sure you ask lots of questions before you accept a job.

[coastiecappy]

Besides the paperwork, there are meetings, meetings, meetings, and quoting, budgeting, tours ( My, what a nice lab you have here ), overtime without pay ( if salaried ), never mind did that in the military to. Stupid questions ( Couldn't we outsource that cheaper ? ), interruptions followed by interruptions. and of course always fearing the downsizing.
Sometimes makes me wish for the good old days.

[USMCPMEL]

You really need to look into PAY versus level of agravation also. I am not sure what the pay would be as a civilian working for the military? A few questions I need answered before I or anyone else can offer you any assistance?

1.) what rank are you currently and what branch of the service are you in?
2. ) What area of the country are you in?
3.) Are you willing to travel a lot as part of your job?
4.) If you got the job a a civilian working for the military what would the pay be? Do you have any idea what the future raises are as a DOD employee?

I can give you a good deal of insight but you really need to weigh all the options out and see what is the best fit for you. From what I remembered about the guys when I was in the service they did not work really hard. Can you talk to one someone who currently holds the position you would be applying for?

[mooshde]

You really need to look into PAY versus level of agravation also.  I am not sure what the pay would be as a civilian working for the military? A few questions I need answered before I or anyone else can offer you any assistance?

1. ) what rank are you currently and what branch of the service are you in?
2.  ) What area of the country are you in?
3. ) Are you willing to travel a lot as part of your job?
4. ) If you got the job a a civilian working for the military what would the pay be? Do you have any idea what the future raises are as a DOD employee?

I can give you a good deal of insight but you really need to weigh all the options out and see what is the best fit for you.  From what I remembered about the guys when I was in the service they did not work really hard.  Can you talk to one someone who currently holds the position you would be applying for?

I appreciate everyone's help so far.

USMCPMEL, Too answer your questions
1.  Right now I'm an E-6 in the Air Force
2.  Living on the East Coast, but looking to move back to the Midwest (preferably WI, MN, or IL)
3.  I don't mind travel, but I try to limit it as much as I can for my family.   I'd say travel would have to be less than 25-50% for overnighters
4.  From what I've seen a DOD civilian working in PMEL is a WG-11/12, so roughly $48k-$60k

As far as civilians working in the military labs, the ones I remember didn't really have to work hard.   They had too meet a ridiculously low production quota (I think the quota had more to do with yearly bonuses than anything else), but there were a few that did as much as they could.   I still talk to a couple of the civilians working in AF labs, so I have a pretty good idea what that would be like.   I really don't know much though about the commercial labs or contracted labs.   Its starting to sound like a thankless job with lots of paperwork.   Unless there's a huge gap in pay, I'm not too concerned about that.   The cost of living for the areas I've been looking at are much lower than where I'm at now, so any pay gap between E-6 and WG-11/12 disappears.   As far as work, I'm used to being the go to guy.   Anyone had a question about TACAN, RF, microwave, test sets, test cell, etc.  I was the one they came too.   I enjoyed helping others and teaching them something new, hopefully passing on my passion for this type of work.   I hope this gives you a little idea of what I'm looking for.   Thanks again.

[RichMojo]

As far as working for the Military as a Civilian (DOD) working at Kirtland AFB, There are 5 steps.   Step one right now is 22. 82, Step 2 after six months is 23. 84, Step 3 after 2 years (total) is 24. 78, Step 4 after 3. 5 years is 25. 70, and after 5 years is 26. 68.   We also get about a 2. 5% pay raise a year and we also get bonuses worth about $1000.

As a contractor working for the military I made $21 at Dyess AFB, Texas(Bionetics), which I think they get about $26 (Yulista) or so now.   At Sheppard AFB, Texas I got $18 and I think they get like $24 now. 

[Bryan]

There's all kinds of different jobs.
Tech at a Commercial Cal lab, one of the Rental Companies, Defense Contrators or an outfit like the OEMs (some of them use contracted) help. 
None of them will give you an M16 though so you'll have to come up with your own.

[mooshde]

So beyond the added paperwork and lack of firearms, what are some of the main differences you all have noticed between military labs and the private sector?

[Duckbutta]

Having worked in both types of labs, I would have to say that the biggest difference is in the available calibration standards.  A military procedure will call for equipment that is known to be in every PMEL lab's inventory.  In a civilian lab, you don't have that luxury.  Due to budget constraints, you cannot justify the expense of maintaing a standard that you have to have calibrated by an outside laboratory that may only be used once a year.  This is especially true in RF, where calibration costs tend to be higher.  Therefore you may find yourself doing an abundance of limited cals.  I have seen many cal certs that indicate that a unit has been fully calibrated but when I look at the standards that they used I know that that is an impossibility.  There seems to be a lot of integrity issues in civilian labs.  In the military you have the luxury of taking as much time as you need on a given piece of equipment.  In a civilian lab you WILL experience external pressure to cut corners and turn a piece of gear that you don't have the appropriate standards to calibrate or to use an inadequate calibration procedure.  That is where your personal integrity will come into play.  I've seen a lot of technicians just go along to get along.  The "make no waves" mindset.  This external pressure is usually the result of some salesman not bidding a job properly.  I have found this especially true in the RF realm.  Just my 2 cents.  Management talks out of both sides of their mouth.  They preach quality, but really want quantity.  That's been my experience in the two nationwide civilian companies that I've worked for.  Anyone want to hazard a guess as to who they might be?

[RichieRich]

No guess necessary.  Quality is almost an intangible in the cal world.  Quantity puts bread on the table.  Therefore those who's primary interest is "turning a profit" will push for quantity even at the expense of quality. 

The truth is that management (or owners) does have financial pressure put on them.  It has been argued here that no financial pressure should be put on technicians and there is a good argument for that.  But I will say that when technicians have no financial pressure and management does, it is easy for the technician to have integrity.  It is much tougher when excercising integrity costs you money or even your job.  Some technicians would still maintain their integrity and some wouldn't.  Same with management.

[Hawaii596]

I must admit I was speed reading most of the other posts.  So, sorry if I repeat anything.

Keep your PMEL school certificate handy.  Just having that certificate puts you above a lot of applicants (in my view).  I've always believe (and continue to) that PMEL school is held in higher regard than civilian associate degree technician (maybe with the exception of the very few metrology majors available out there).

Just my two cents.