New member

[fredhdavis]

Hi,

My name is Fred Davis and I'm a new member.  I was in PMEL for a
relatively short time - 1967 until my retirement in 1975.  Before that I
was an air traffic control radar repair technician.

While in PMEL, my duty stations were Shaw AFB, SC, Ramstein AB,
Germany and Keesler AFB, MS.

After retiring in 1975, I worked at various jobs and finally settled
at Lockheed-Martin (then Martin Marietta) at the Michoud Assembly
Facility in east New Orleans, LA (space shuttle external tank).  I
retired from Michoud in December 1999 as a Senior Manufacturing
Engineer.

If someone would fill me in on a few things, I'd appreciate it.  It is my
understanding that the PMEL field was discontinued in the AF.  Is that
true?  If so, how is this service now being rendered to the AF.

Any other info that you can pass along to me will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Fred Davis

[Hoopty]

Hi Fred.  Welcome to the forum.

The AF didn't get rid of the career field entirely, but it has diminished in size significantly.  I think is something less than 1000 blue suiters left.

Sometime back in the early 90's, the DOD figured that PMEL served solely as a support function and could easily be contracted out.  Basically serving no wartime purpose.  So they started what they call an A76 study to compare the cost savings if they used civil service or contractors instead.  Eventually, they saw the error of their ways and decided that they couldn't do away with the military folks completely.  (Hard to get civil service/contractors to go to the middle east!)

The second time around, they looked at keeping core bases military while contracting out the rest.  At these locations, the A76 competition pitted contractors against civil service and whoever came in with the best bid would take over the PMEL function.  There are a little of both out there now (contract and civil service). 

At least one has since failed and been returned back military and I've heard rumors of others returning as well.  It's my opinion that the reason for failure is lowballing the bidding process.  Contractors just can't afford to pay technicians enough and make a profit, so they don't get qualified technicians and quality suffers until AFMETCAL shuts them down.  Civil service contracts (MEO) tend to have qualified people, but they cut the manning so thin in order to win the contract, that any change in workload causes huge problems with turnaround times.  There have been several manning assists in order to bring the backlog down at these locations.

Right now, I can only think of 12 stateside bases that are military and 7 overseas (2 being Korea).  The rest are either contract or civil service.

Anyway, that seems to be the state of the career field today.

[fredhdavis]

Thanks, Jesse.  I appreciate the info and am relieved to know that the
field hasn't been abandoned in its entirety. 

Your reply made me think of this.  When I was at Keesler, the
lab there was about 50-50 military and civilian.  When it came time to
work on the weekend, there came a bit of dissention because the
civilians were not asked to work and, if they were, they were paid
overtime.  I always understood but a lot of the guys didn't.

Thanks again,

Fred

[flamy78]

Hi Fred.  Welcome to the forum.


At least one has since failed and been returned back military and I've heard rumors of others returning as well. 

That place in texas that went back military in 01 or 02? In 00-20-14 what's MEO and CS? CS is randolph some others are MEO but isn't any elboration.

[MIRCS]

MEO is civil service.

Hoopty I hate to say it, but on a quality level, blue suiters would be shut down in an instant. The quality that contract labs are held too(I can only speak for ACC Yulista labs) is by far more than any blue suit lab. Having QAE inspection basically once a quarter and unannounced. You have no idea. I believe that the QAE's did a mock inspection on Langley and said the fines and problems they saw would have been enough to close the place. Contractors I believe are more than 50% of the labs.

I'm sorry I just don't agree on contractors not paying well. They do try and get cheap insurance.

The one that didn't work was a civil service lab and not a contract lab.

[Old-Navy]

Bill's Calibration Emporium and Taco stand.

Sounds like a job with Free Lunch!!!!

[Hoopty]

I stand corrected.  I did think that Laughlin was contract.  But there have also been some contractors on the AFMETCAL hit list as well (one rather large lab in Utah comes to mind).   But in reality, it's probably about the same ratio as blue suit labs that have problems as well.  And I really wasn't trying to say that the military labs were perfect either.  There are a couple in the same boat right now.

The rest is really my (and maybe most blue suiters) perception of the situation.  Not having ever worked for a contractor, I really can't speak about the benefits.  I just know that for them, it's a business and they have to make money in the end.  Which ultimately affects what they pay their employees (and can affect the quality of technician as well).  Whether you take less benefits for more wages, or vice versa, it's not the best situation.  

And like Flynn pointed out, since the contract is rebid every so often, you may not be working for the same employer or even be hired if a new contract is awarded.  That's always been my biggest contention, job security is really why I re-joined the AF.  Once I retire from the AF, it won't be such a big deal, but unless I have that retirement cushion, I really don't want to be jobless.

I have also seen civil service labs that were pretty bad too.  For instance, Kelly AFB was contract, the contractor pulled out, and they backfilled the lab with civil servants with electronics backgrounds from around the base.  They were all good people, but 99% had never worked PMEL so they really had a hard time of it.  Now that I think of it, probably a few of those guys went to Laughlin when Kelly closed.

Sorry for any confusion that I caused as that was mostly just my take on things.

Jesse

[flamy78]

Is Laughlin the base I'm thinking of? I was under the impression it was a base almost in texas except for the rio grande between them.

[Hoopty]

That's the one.

[BEAR]

Have been working in this business sense 1970, 23 years A.F, and now about 13 years as a contrator, Rayteon, Bionetics, yulista and now Arctec. This job pays about $36.00 a hour,has about $4.00 a hour that the Co. puts into a 401k , about $5.00 an hour into a pension play, and around $6.00 and hour is paid into a med. plan. I work 4- 10hour days and current get 6.5 weeks of vac. time  per. year. When i started in the A.F i got about $123.00 per month and a 30day vac. and all my med. paid. Which outfit would you want to work for?

[Hoopty]

Well, when you put it that way, I guess I'd rather have the $36/hr vs. $123.00/mo.   

At first glance, that looks like a hell of a nice compensation package you've got there.  But, I also notice that you're from Clear, Alaska, which brings that back down to earth a little bit.  I seriously doubt you'll find that kind of package in the lower 48.

Air Force money ain't so bad these days.  Truthfully, my take home pay is more than it was when I was making 45K/year on the outside.

[Thraxas]

I hope Fred made it through the hurricane.

[Catfoodm22]

I have to agree somewhat about if you are not retired and work for a contractor the benefits are not up to par.  Our company bases there medical and dental insurance out of Alaska, I do not live in Alaska nor does almost 90% of the employees so that does suck trying to find a in network doctor or dentist.  I would gladly go back to the good ol' Tri-Care days of getting my monthly perscription of "Air Force Candy" (motrin for the un-initiated) that I needed because I just had my left leg amputated...hopefully you see the humor

[dallanta]

I have been happy with Yulista.  Out here at Dyess AFB it is really great.  The pay is anyway.  They could use a few lessons in health care.   Sometimes though, I get itchy foot syndrome and start looking elsewhere.

[clacoste]

I'm not really looking at the moment, got some decent pay raises lately, but you never know...I've heard Yulista is one of the better contractors around.  Seem to have some choice locations, particularly PACAF.  What are their benefits like?  Do they contribute to 401k?  How are leave entitlements? Health insurance cover dependents at all?

Interesting company.