Possible Fake certification ? Illegal ?

[stripped screw]

4 years calibration with marine air side, now working civilian side. Current employer frequently sends out customer assets to other facilities for calibration. When we get the asset back im asked to remove the 3rd party sticker and place ours on it and initials " tpc " for third party calibration in the designated tech initials section. We then have to " make a certificate " using our templates using what little info the third party place provided on the cert. In some cases the temp and humidity have to be made up, the customer is never told directly that the asset was sent out nor do they receive the original cert that was given to us from the 3rd party.

this is done so we can get the business but sometimes there just not enough information to make a completely and properly filled out ' doctored ' cert, such as standards missing from the certificate because i dont know what the 3rd party used.

im working for an NON accredited lab we are NOT ISO, but is any of this illegal ? It doesnt seem right to give customers half filled out certs in a " white lie " as if we did it unless they started to ask questions they would become aware that we did not calibrate the asset. Its commonly understood that the people receiving the certificate may not know what to look for or understand what information should be on the cert as well has what tests should have been performed.

[RFCAL]

All of it-not illegal, but not very ethical. I'd be looking for another place to work. BTW what lab is it?

[stripped screw]

i feel managers/owners of place are more interested in exploiting opportunities to make some money in life, they have no back ground in cal and pretty much just inherited the place after mom an pop retired years ago.

[ck454ss]

It is definately illegal if the third party cert has the "Not to be reproduced exept in its full form" statement on the cert.

Certified ISO or not you are committing fraud by doing that.

Best part is if by some chance that equipment got fubared by the 3rd party site its your ass on the line and not theirs because you essentially took credit for their cal and the results.

[stripped screw]

Is there any official black and white documentation outlining this to support my case when i bring it up. Also some of the places we have sent assets to dont mention not to copy the cert but i have seen that before.

I would like to see supporting evidence that i can site and stand by to avoid issues at the work center with my word vs theirs and so on.

[MetVet]

If you are not ISO, then you are basically giving the client a report that can say anything.  It is not illegal, but quite possible unethical (not a reputation you want as a cal lab).  If you are stating conformance to a standard that requires reporting sub-contracted work,  then you are non-compliant.

If you look through the various ISO standards, there are minimum criteria to meet for certificates to be valid.  One of the most cited requirements in ISO is
"Location where the calibration was conducted, if different from the service provider address".

I would submit that this clearly specifies identifying sub-contractors.  Add to that,  many clients have requirements to be informed of items being subbed out (for very good reasons), the lab you are working at is taking a large risk of pissing off the clients.

And for what?  To appear as a lab that has unlimited capabilities?  Makes no sense to me.

[Hawaii596]

As much as I don't care for a few of the requirements of ISO17025, it is cases like this that make me respect the need for it in industry.  It is a far from perfect requirement.  But it is times like these that are reminders of how needed it is.

Back to the topic at hand; I wonder whether there is a violation if the subcontractor certificates are either ISO17025 compliant or accredited, if there is still a violation (even if this company is not ISO17025 accredited), by copying any of that certificate (in part, in this case).  It seems that may be a violation regardless of the status of this calibration lab.

[ck454ss]

Is there any official black and white documentation outlining this to support my case when i bring it up. I would like to see supporting evidence that i can site and stand by to avoid issues at the work center with my word vs theirs and so on.

Its especially important when dealing with the government to not have fradulent documentation.  We undergo regular audits from the government to ensure compliance to their requirements.  We are responsible for ensuring our vendors are compliant also.  If I had a vendor doing what you were doing I would notify the government agency I was doing work for as well as the proper authorities about the false documentation.  (We have notified the FBI for fraudulent documentation for government work before on inspection paperwork for parts.)

http://www.federalgovernmentcontractorfraud.com/falsecertificationdefensecontractorlawsuits.htm

If you have any concern or questions on the validity of what you are doing contact your local authorities or even you state district attorney and ask.

[griff61]

I'd be inclined to say that if you're making up things like temp and humidity factors, it's not a white lie, it's fraud. Maybe not quite licking & sticking, but a little too close for my comfort zone.
I've quit a couple sweet paying jobs for that kind of practice. You should look for work elsewhere...

[USMCPMEL]

I agree with everything that has been stated here. This is not a good practice at all and borders on illegal. I would hate to have someone find out that your doing that they might take away your calibration license,,, But seriously (which I seldom am) I would not be comfortable with that at all. I would seriously consider looking for a new job. Especially the part where you make up the temperature and humidity that is fraud. Is there any indication on the certificates that your lab is ISO certified? Also are you doing this with A2LA (ISO 17025) certs?

[MetVet]

If you want some documentation to support your argument,  I would start by looking at your customers purchase orders.  See if they list any requirements about subcontracting services,  I know many of ours do.

[mysterymeat]

Stripped Screw, what they're having you do is wrong, and they know it is. Confronting them about it will only get you fired. As others have stated, if something bad happens due to an item you certified as "tpc", you will be the one thrown under the bus.

If I were in your shoes, I would be looking for another job pronto.

[MetVet]

If you are happy with all the other aspects of your job,  you should look at this as an opportunity to improve their services.  If they aren't receptive to your recommendations,  I would have to agree with others recommending you find another position.