Do any of you pharmaceutical types have any experience supporting the Kaye LabWatch system? We are in the process of getting a 250 point system up and validated. Unfortunately we have discovered significant drifting of many of our thermal measurement points. Almost all temperature points being monitored are using type T thermocouples and we have seen some channels drift more than 2°C in 3 months. I just recently charted a 0.7°C drift in 4 days on one special test point I set up. System specifications are quite vague but the company claims the system is stable to around 0.25°C per year.
As you can imagine the "blame game" has already begun and is gaining momentum. Do any of you have this system installed at your facilities? Any ideas what's causing the drifting we are seeing? Any and all suggestions or comments would be MORE than appreciated.
we don't use it at our plant. We are playing the blame game right now with thier ValProbes as some every few runs no longer read.
Oh yeah also we don't use thermocouples on anything.......all 100 Ohm 385 curve PRT's
I've been so PO'd at the arrogance of GE Infrastructure Sensing for the last few years that I'm heavily leaning towards going with the Ellab TrackSense Pro loggers instead of the ValProbes. Tell me more about how they are responding to the problems you are seeing with the ValProbes.
Also, what's the maximum wire run you are able to go with for the PRTs, and you are using 4 wire leads I assume.
All three wire. JMS makes a hell of a probe.
The longest we have run I would say is 150' Though most runs are from 25-75'
our valProbe problem is with moisture getting inside and just complete failure of them. Start a project with 54 and only get 45-50 to read for a cal verification. They have come up with all kinds of answers which were all just Bovine defecation.
For the most part we aren't monitoring anything what I call precision work. Just fridges, freezers and an ultra-freezer here and there. I would say our typical wire run is 250 feet though there are some that have upwards of 450 feet of wire to the probe. But wire length doesn't appear to be a factor. I get the same readings when I inject a signal at the end of a 270 foot chunk as I do when I shoot it into the 10 foot test drop on the same channel. And the TCs aren't drifting. I've gone back and tested a sampling of them. That only leaves the POS netpacks, those of course Kaye claims are as stable as a rock.
A 10 to 20% failure rate seems pretty high to me. Are they completely dead or do they come back to life after they dry out? What temp/humidity/pressure conditions are you testing? I could understand it a little if you're testing an autoclave cycle maybe, but anything else doesn't make much sense to me.
We have em in our Sterilizer's. So yeah........about 123C for 30-80 minutes, rotating, hitting water.........yeah I can expect failures. The problem is that they completely die and have to get new boards put into them at Kaye. They first told us that it was because we didn't replace the O-rings when battery replacement happened.......................well that has been remedied and we still have th problem.
Kaye has blamed the problem on my temp baths...................................if they think that oil with a cs of 510 is actually getting into the probes.............well they are idiots.
We went to the ValProbes from Data Tracers......due to the fact we could change our own batteries and they were more accurate. I will say that the probes that work are rock solid.......it just sucks when you have made 45 runs on a 90 minute cycle with the sterilizers and I give back the ValProbes to validation and tell em that x number failed...........project failed, make all new runs................that is why we use 54 probes per run when only about 20 are needed.
We're still trying to make do with an old Kaye KL validator. I'm getting really, really tired of stringing all those thermocouple in everything. That's why I'm pushing for a wireless system.
Have you ever done a site audit of Kaye? That's another area we always seem to have no funding for. The last 3 times I've sent our IRTD probes back for cal I've checked them against our fixed point cells upon return and they were all either just out or so close they should have been. I would love to go check their traceability matrix and processes. But then again, maybe it's better not to know....
I hope you are not using a Daytron 1281 to check your RTD with. Never use a Daytron 1281 to check RTDs and PRTs due to the current used by the 1281 for 4-wire resistance.
Are you sure you are checking the RTDs with 1mA across the RTD? It really makes a difference. Some meters. like the Daytron 1281, does not use 1mA when measuring 4-wire and when you are calibrating or reference checking an RTD you need 1mA unless it is specified by the MFR to use another known current. I use a Hart Scientific Super thermometer that way I can control my current.
I'm sure you guys already know this. I just remember having the same problem with not reproducing the same out come as the MFR and low and behold it was my current from the meter not being 1mA. That was 10 years ago and I will never forget the head banging I went through to figure that out. :|
The Kaye IRTDs are the so-called "intelligent" probes that have the electronics in the head of the probe and output a digital signal in degrees temperature. I started verifying the probes when they came back from calibration a few years ago against my TP H2O, Ga cell and In cell. I figure I've got sub 1 mK uncertainty with the water and Gallium and about 2 mK on my Indium cell so I get really upset when I see a freshly calibrated probe off the entire limit of 0.025°C at any of those points.
I also have a Hart Superthermometer for my SPRT, nice unit, though I've had a little trouble with the video card in it. And of course all the parts are obsolete so repair is quite expensive. I had to take it apart and mount a heat sink on the video processor and a little fan to pull heat out of the computer "half" of the meter. Seems to be working much better now.
You must have an older SuperThermometer. I have the 1590 and they still sell them and service them.
I do see your point with the Intel Probes. I never cal'd them, but it does sound like the problem is with the MFR.
I would call their service center and talk to their tech who cals them. I bet you will find that it is in their method.
I've got a 1590 also. But it's a '97 year model. The LCD screen is obsolete as you can imagine as is the video card. The new video cards aren't compatable with the LCD screen so the only way to really fix the problem is to replace both the LCD and the video card. But of course the current LCDs mount differently so the housing needs to be changed out....hense the excessive (in my opinion) cost.
And I've talked to the service center and it's like talking to the wall. They don't really want to know. It's like dealing with an 800 lb gorilla.
Dag on ya'll boys have some super sophisticated equipment.
I'm doing verification on 54 ValProbes in the am. I will let ya'll know how many fail. They made 30 runs with them.
Don't you dump the data after every run?
Let me know the failure rate. We've got a Kaye rep working for us for the next couple of days so maybe I'll make him squirm a little.
We have an internal customer at my company that's purchasing a Labwatch System. I'm recommending that they don't use thermocouple and opt for Kaye's RTD solution or purchase some compliant RTD from some other source. Thermocouple is wrought with problems if you're going to try and hold a 0.025 C tolerance. It really can only be characterized down at that level and you should expect drift regardless of what a mfg will try to sell you. Kaye makes a lot of money off of their t/c sales.
I wouldn't beat Kaye up too much though. They do make some good products. The X2000 Validator is an excellent product. Very reliable and holds the cal year over year. We've got 12 and haven't had an OOT yet over the last 5 years.
As for the ValProbes, I don't have any experience with them and I don't know which company makes them for Kaye. However, putting a wireless sensor in an autoclave is most likely going to cause failures. It's a pretty harsh environment for anything! If you want to go wireless you might want to check out a company called Mesa Labs. I think the product line is called Data Tracers. I would guess that all of the mfgs of this type of sensor is experiencing problems but Mesa Labs has an advantage over them. They have an additional dock to collect any analog signal (within a certain range) and can be synched with the data from all of the sensors being used. You also have the ability to scale the analog input within the software to be whatever you'd like. This would be a major advantage if you're collecting information from a non-conventional sensor such as a gas sensor, fan, or whatever. Good luck.
No, I don't expect the TCs on the LabWatch system to maintain 0.025°C. That is the tolerance of the Kaye IRTDs that we have.
For the LabWatch system I'm expecting 0.25 to 0.5°C accuracy for a year. That's more than adequate for monitoring a fridge or freezer. Most of our units have an acceptable range of ±4°C from setpoint so a half a degree is fine in my book.
I do have to admit that our old Kaye X1360 ( I think I remember the number) is solid. Very little drift and is very reliable. It's just a hassle stringing all those probes when you are trying to use it.
Yeah we have data tracers...........the problem though is when the battery dies you have to send it back to them for a hefty sum.
Yeah we download after the runs, out of the first 10, 5 said low battery.............we replace the batteries every cycle.
I am sorry.....the problem with the data tracers are that they are not field calibratable and at $1200 per calibration............well that buys a ValProbe.
I will say the ValProbes are very stable........(If they work)........compared to the data tracers.
Well out of the first 30...............2 will not read. :x
Well make that 3 out of the first 40. 18 with low voltages..........(*&(*)&^)*&^$&*^*&@
Well make it 4 out of 50 and now upto 23 with low voltage.
Tough I do love my Hart 6024 bath...........that is one stable and uniform
Hmmmm.....................seems I have a bad socket in the reader.....put the 4 in that didn't read in different sockets and they are programming as I type.
What does "low voltage" mean? Since we don't have the ValProbes I'm not familiar with them so don't really know what the problem was. The 4 that read on a different socket....I guess they were OK then? Does that mean they all survived?
Quote from: OlDave on 04-19-2006 -- 09:59:26
What does "low voltage" mean? Since we don't have the ValProbes I'm not familiar with them so don't really know what the problem was. The 4 that read on a different socket....I guess they were OK then? Does that mean they all survived?
Don't know yet. They are cooking at 125C right now. The lowvoltage is the batteries. When the reader reads them it also reads the battery power. All probes just had battery replacements.
Can I say again how much I love this Hart 6024...............it is holding the bath at 125C stable by 0.004C and that has lasted for a total of 15 minutes as I type...............amazingly there is about 11 gallons of Dow 710 in there...which makes the 0.004 stability amazing
I've got to agree with you MIRCS. Hart makes some dandy temperature baths. I can't say I've ever really had a problem with one and they are as stable as they claim.
A little update on our Kaye LabWatch saga. It was determined by their field service engineer that at least 75% of our input cards are exibiting excessive drifting. (Remember this is on a 250 point system with 20 channels/card so you do the math.) To Kaye's credit they are manufacturing, burning in, calibrating, sending out a team of technicians to replace our input cards (all of them) and recalibrating the sensors on each channel. Not an easy task. ALL AT NO COST. I will tip my hat to them for this outstanding resolution of a major problem.
While I will still withhold any future recommendations for Kaye equipment, I feel they are really working hard to rectify this problem. Time will tell if the new cards are stable
Hope ya'll don't mind, but I moved this topic to a more appropriate forum... :-D
Quote from: Hoopty on 04-19-2006 -- 21:22:06
Hope ya'll don't mind, but I moved this topic to a more appropriate forum... :-D
Hmmm........is it the more appropriate, cause now I'm going to talk about the Validator 2000 we have here that is calibrated with mV, mA, ohms and Volts :-D
Okay I'm now reading the first 10 probes from yesterdays verification and already had one not record any data and faulted as unstable..............more to come
I have now read 40 and have had an additional 4 fail accuracy
So the 5 that failed accuracy. How far out were they? Was it significant? I don't know what the specs are for the ValProbes but lets say they are spec'd at ±0.1°C and you found a few off 0.13°C then sure, they failed cal, but was it a significant out of tolerance condition that impacted the test?
Of the 54 you had in the run, how many do you classify as providing valid data? Was there enough overlap in placement that you can declare the sterilizer validated?
I'm really interested because I want to go with wireless probes because of the convenience. But if I take a reliabiltiy hit I'll have to rethink.
Oh yeah there was enough overlap.
1 failed cause it read 10C at 50 and 45C at 125
The tolerance we gave was 0.5
The others failed about 0.1 to 0.7 from that....all the other probes were about 0.02 of the IRTD
QuoteI will say the ValProbes are very stable........(If they work)..
Let me follow along on this one then. 5 failed accuracy, but they all survived and you didn't burn up any boards.
It doesn't sound like I want to invest too much time or money buying ValProbes. Maybe Ellab will demo me a set of probes that I can stick in the autoclave for a few cycles and see if they survive.
Quote from: OlDave on 04-21-2006 -- 14:42:21
QuoteI will say the ValProbes are very stable........(If they work)..
Let me follow along on this one then. 5 failed accuracy, but they all survived and you didn't burn up any boards.
It doesn't sound like I want to invest too much time or money buying ValProbes. Maybe Ellab will demo me a set of probes that I can stick in the autoclave for a few cycles and see if they survive.
Only 4 failed not 5. so 50 were good. Of the 4 that failed only one had lost it's mind, the others were just barely out of the tolerance.
The ValProbes are way more stable than the Mesa Data Tracers. Also if these were Data tracers that failed they would be back on their way to em at $1200 each for adjustments as they cannot be adjusted in the field. So that would be $3600 for calibration right there about the same price of a new ValProbe.
Also the ValProbes will start recording when you tell em and at whatever interval you wish. I sincerly do NOT like the Data tracers, they are nowhere near as stable as the ValProbes. Also sometimes when these fail I will blame the Validation department for mishandling.
What kind of autoclave are you using??? Does it rotate???
$1200 seems pretty steep for a recalibration. What is their logic of making them non-field supportable? Other than a steady income stream. Propietary calibrations like that really tend to pi** me off for the most part.
We've got 2 autoclaves, a Primus and a Getinge. Both non-rotating, fairly good sized. And neither one is wonderfully reliable it seems. We use them to decon everything coming out of our BSL-3 labs.
I don't anticipate going wireless because the X2000 is so reliable. However, I worked with the applications engineers at Mesa labs and they were very responsive. Also, they were more than willing to provide the software to adjust. I had a demo on it and as long as you have the standards that's a non-concern. If you don't believe me just call and ask them. I agree that the Data Tracers were less than reliable. They let us use them for a month and in an autoclave we lost sensors..............usually related to the battery. Until they work reliability issues out I won't be purchasing any wireless sensor for our validation work.
Concerning the valprobes I have no experience or opinion on them other than they're probably OEM'd from Mesa Labs.
Just so you know we have 60 Data tracers sitting on the shelf not being used due to the price of recerification. Also wireless is the best way for us to go with our Lagarde Sterilizers
Have you asked them for the access to adjust them? I put a little heat on them due to the size of our company and if they wanted any sales that would be priority #1.
Quote from: mjoeng1 on 04-23-2006 -- 10:00:52
Have you asked them for the access to adjust them? I put a little heat on them due to the size of our company and if they wanted any sales that would be priority #1.
It's a moot point. The accuracy and stability of the ValProbes far exceeds the Data Tracers. We have had the ValProbes for a year now.
We have sent back about 20 for repair.......................we did have a contractor (IDIOT) validation person putting these into 500mL or 1000mL btls and was zip tying them in by hand......................needless to say alot of em fell out. This covers about half of those sent back and maybe the cuprit to the ones failing now. We did have em failing prior to the great Probe escape of 05................we are still missing on in the Sterilizer :? :? :? :? :? :?