I have noticed that the new guys out of the military lack a bunch of the basic knowledge. One of the things that come to mind is that they don't even know what the difference is between RG58, RG59, RG62 cables. Another is that some of them don't even know how to solder. What's going on? I have even seen one guy who did not know how to setup a power meter and sensor. Last year at Happy Valley a newbie was about to adjust five 8640B's because he said the AM was out of tolerance on all of them. I went to check it out, low and behold he was using RG62 (93ohm) video cables. Did I just run into a bunch of bad eggs or is everyone else seeing this? I have even seen a few that did not know how to use a spec-an. I remember learning these things in school. Please tell me these are isolated incidents. :?
On top of all that, we are going to be screwed when it comes to Phys.D. I have yet to meet one fresh guy out of the service with any real clue about Phys.D. and it's the easiest part of our job. I guess it's all OJT from now on. I've seen a noobie try to calibrate a PRT with a 5500 for God Sake! :?
Cable types they don't really go into - it least not in my eperience. RG58/59 was about all they mentioned that I remember.
Oh and the fart in the skillet you are probably referring to doesn't pay attention all that much sometimes.
Flynn must have told him to get back to work a good dozen times yesterday. Hell even I told him to get rid of that crap he had. He tries to multitask too much.
I will admit I have seen one or two new guys that were pretty impressive with the K3 & K4 side of the house, but as for an all around tech I am just not impressed with what I've seen coming from the military.
Quote from: flew-da-coup on 04-05-2006 -- 11:07:56
On top of all that, we are going to be screwed when it comes to Phys.D. I have yet to meet one fresh guy out of the service with any real clue about Phys.D. and it's the easiest part of our job. I guess it's all OJT from now on. I've seen a noobie try to calibrate a PRT with a 5500 for God Sake! :?
Your kidding right??????
And yes Phys-D is a problem that has been recognized by the AF, they realized with the disolving of the Instrumentman rating in the USN that having IC and EM ratings continue the training that the experience would be lost. It is leaving fast also.
Why would you expect a person just out of the service to know anything about Phys-D????? Last I checked no service teaches this in their basic schools other than a mere glimpse.......If they don't work with an experienced K6 person they will not learn anything about K6. Also labs need to quit sticking the sh!t bags into K6 cause they think they can't hurt anything there.
My point exactly... They used to teach Phys.D. I want to know why they stopped. I want to know why they don't atleast teach the basics. This was the whole point of the topic. They are not equiping them with the basics anymore. Why?
The Navy had it right until the early 1990s. I was an ET and went to IM school. The IM school if I remember correctly was about 16 weeks long and of course my ET school was even longer. Now none of the branches of the military teaches Phys.D.
Your lucky to be a IM because there is not a lot of us out there who spent 4 months in school to learn Phys. D.
I know for a fact that Marine and Navy Calibrators aren't even aloud to solder now.
What is up with that? My point is that we are going to have real problems finding qualified people in the near future. Hell, it's easy to get a job now because no one can find Phys.D techs.
They still teach Phys-D at Keesler correct??.....the old Navy NEC 1820??????
When I went through school in Pensacola the A school was 22 weeks long, however it was self paced to an extent.
I remember when I went through A school there was an ET3 going through also.
I had 3 ETs including myself in IM "A" school. From what I gather they are only showing them a micrometer and a torque wrench now. Hoopty should know maybe he will weigh in on this. I was talking to a ex-navy AT who went through the Navy's cal school just a few years back and he said that they only spend a week or so on Phys.D.
But you know the Navy. They have a way of quiting something only to start back later. All I know is that Phys.D. has been put on the back burner. Look back at my first post and you will see that the Electronics side of the lab is not all that either. I may have just run into some bad eggs. I hope that this is true.
Quote from: flew-da-coup on 04-05-2006 -- 06:39:54
Last year at Happy Valley a newbie was about to adjust five 8640B's because he said the AM was out of tolerance on all of them. I went to check it out, low and behold he was using RG62 (93ohm) video cables.
Maybe he's one of those guys that doen't have formal PMEL training. Maybe he's really a former electrician, flightline guy, or cabinet maker...
(If you don't who those refer to, then you haven't been paying attention, flew-da-coup.) :-D
Yeah, we've still got the Phys-D school. I can't vouch for what they teach down there, but I was under the impression that it was a pretty good course. I'll try and find out more specifics if you want.
No Thraxas, it was a night shift guy who was ex-airforce PMEL. I like the guy personally. Hint: K.B. is always trying to get him fired. Takes too many smoke breaks.
He does not have a hard time learning things, but he should have already had the knowledge.
Hoopty, I am wanting to know the extent the school house is teaching Phys.D. I would also like to know how long the block is. Maybe I am expecting to much. :|
Thraxas, there are a few guys like you, Brent and Greg that are under 10 years that actually have skills that I have seen. Working at Happy Valley you see a lot of fresh noobies right out of uniform. Come to think about it, maybe I am focusing too much on the lower percentage. I just can't understand how they made it through school.
Hoopty, are you guys seeing alot of guys that should not be at the school house? If so, how are they getting through and not washed out?
I test good ... most of the time. Plus I had a foundation of basic electronics going in. I did try to get out of it but that's a longer story that my memory is hazy on. But I pissed off a few civilians there along the way.
Quote from: flew-da-coup on 04-06-2006 -- 05:12:23
No Thraxas, it was a night shift guy who was ex-airforce PMEL. I like the guy personally. Hint: K.B. is always trying to get him fired. Takes too many smoke breaks.
He does not have a hard time learning things, but he should have already had the knowledge.
Aw, I know who your talking about. From what I understand, he's doing much better since he's resolved some personal issues. I haven't heard too many stories of John McEnroe bugging him lately.
Quote from: flew-da-coup on 04-06-2006 -- 05:20:05
Working at Happy Valley you see a lot of fresh noobies right out of uniform. Come to think about it, maybe I am focusing too much on the lower percentage. I just can't understand how they made it through school.
I think your misremembering. Many of those guys have been in the civilian workforce for years. Some of them just didn't seem to have the skills to match the experience, and I'm not talking about about the ones fresh out of the military. Although I will admit that many of them seemed like noobies with their atrociously bad calibration habits. Statistically speaking that is (inside joke). :wink:
The new techs have no discipline and don't care. Far as soldering, in the Marine Corps, 99.9% of techs aren't solder qual becuz there is a seprate shop for that. Speaking of which, is there a school or class I can take for that? :evil:
Get your butt in 2M school
I worked phys/d at Keesler AFB in the early 80's, started working there under the supervision and training of a great civilian guy. I later went to the advanced phys/d school at Lowry, and can not immagine how anyone can become fully proficient with the diciplines involved without the proper training. Is it really true that there are no schools offered by any branch? Seems hard to believe.
You've come up against the "familiarity flaw." If you can calibrate one torque wrench, you can do all of them, right? Once you've done one balance scale, surface plate, pressure gauge, micrometer, whatever, you can do 'em all, right?
Not so in the sections where ya gotta plug the stuff in- a Fluke DMM is different from an H/P DMM when it comes time to fix something- not so much in the "grease and gears" area... A Starrett micrometer is remarkably similar to a Mitutoyo in functionality...
So your advanced training gets left behind, because the powers that be are under the impression that your stuff is "simpler" than any of the other K-areas. Any phys-D troop can argue against that six ways to Sunday, but it probably won't change where the money goes...
Quote from: docbyers on 04-12-2006 -- 08:56:24
You've come up against the "familiarity flaw." If you can calibrate one torque wrench, you can do all of them, right? Once you've done one balance scale, surface plate, pressure gauge, micrometer, whatever, you can do 'em all, right?
Not so in the sections where ya gotta plug the stuff in- a Fluke DMM is different from an H/P DMM when it comes time to fix something- not so much in the "grease and gears" area... A Starrett micrometer is remarkably similar to a Mitutoyo in functionality...
So your advanced training gets left behind, because the powers that be are under the impression that your stuff is "simpler" than any of the other K-areas. Any phys-D troop can argue against that six ways to Sunday, but it probably won't change where the money goes...
Amen
My biggest issues with the newbies is how the hell can you ask me a question on how to calibrate a unit when you dont even have a procedure for it :? HEY lets trying pulling the damn procedure and reading it :-o
Get the MFR Specs and cal the dern thing!
A generation of Lowry-trained, Cold War veteran PMEL techs are all retiring and enjoying life. These guys and gals were around in the days when you had real bad guys and a mission to accomplish, communists in eastern Europe just waiting to come over the border, and Russian nukes that could fly at any time... That mindset led them to train the new kids with a sense of commitment and urgency. School taught you how to solder and some basic electronic theory. You got to be a good tech out there in the labs and in the field, where you were taught how all that theory worked out here in the real world. Fried power supply? Ohm's Law is pretty useless, but replace that smoke-brown capacitor, soldering it to NASA standards, and then calibrate that unit and get it to the owner, 'cause we have planes to get in the air...
Now a new generation of Keesler-trained techs are out there in the contract labs, where there's more interest in keeping the contract than there is in training the new kid. He'll be gone in 6 months anyway, when the company has an opening in a lab near his home town... No money for advanced training: we have to keep our costs down so we can get the contract renewed...
Any of this sound familiar?
That's it Doc. That's the problem. It is a shame.
I agree.....yet disagree with you Doc.
we asked constantly for more people and also for sending us to school.
I know myself and another contractor at barksdale pretty much worked out all the bugs on the 6625AF..............which in turn allowed us the standard resistors first. we had people stopping by from Guildline to work with us, spent many hours on the phone with Ken eddy and Guildline..............yet Hoopty gets to goto training and probably not one contractor..........which is totally bunk!!!!!!
Yet the problem lies in the fact that most people in the contract labs I was involved with had been through all the schools. Last I checked they don't send active duty back to the same schools after they recieve them regardless of what changed. heck I'm a Phys-d guy and begged from 2001 through 2005 to be sent back through the school, just to relearn lost talents and to relearn in a new way.
So yes I agree and disagree.
I was talking to my nephew at Dyess last night on the phone; he leaves today for his 4th deployment to the eastern sandbox. He's a flight engineer on a C-130, SSgt, and he's re-enlisting for another 5 years.
Anyway, he is sad to see the quality of new troops coming in now. He's been in 9 years, and is starting to sound like me already, amazed at the lack of military discipline and respect the new kids have. I will admit the "Yes, Sir, No, Sir" bit may have been a little over-done, but it served its purpose, and we never disrespected an NCO that outranked us back in the day...
There is a problem when an E-3 addresses his E-6 as " Jim " while on duty and in unifrom.
Does that mean I cant call you Flew anymore............
Say it isnt so coup.......say it isnt so.........
Hahaha. Okay, you can call me flew. Wait a minute, you out ranked me in the Navy. I only made it to E-5. You retired. I will have to refer to you as Chief. Aye Aye Chief. :-D
Chief? I only made E-6. But you can call me Chief if you want to.......
I impressed upon my daughters at a young age not to call me "Sir." This came about as a result of a MSgt telling me one time "Sir?!? I'm an NCO son, I work for a living! Don't go calling me 'Sir!' Save that $hi+ for the officers!"
Now, when my 22-year-old brings a prospective suitor around, they invariably say "Pleased to meet you, sir..."
My daughter then leans over and quietly says "Don't call him that..."
If you don't like your new guys, you can fill out a Product Quality Defeciency Report and try to get your money back from the Air Force. Your new techs aren't meeting specs right of the box, and you don't want a communications tech that's been improperly labeled as a PMEL tech. I'm assuming you're guys are still under warranty. You might want to double check. Warranties tend to end after a period known as "terminal leave". :lol:
only the Army guys "work for a living"
I work for living and I require my two boys to say ma'am & sir to all adults.
Quote from: flew-da-coup on 05-19-2006 -- 10:40:51
I work for living and I require my two boys to say ma'am & sir to all adults.
You also let them learn how to beat people up. Does this mean that when they're older they'll be able to kick a$$ with politeness? :-D
There is no better way to beat the crap out of a person than to be polite about it. :-D
Quote from: flew-da-coup on 05-20-2006 -- 09:11:00
There is no better way to beat the crap out of a person than to be polite about it. :-D
Maybe they'll grow up to be Secret Service agents. :-D
I guess they beat the crap out of people in a polite manner. They do wear suits and ties when they do it.
So, they're well dressed a$$ kickers. :-D
Well, it's better than PMEL.
Yeah, they wouldn't do too well in PMEL. Fighting skills wouldn't help them determine the difference between a RG58 and RG62.:-D
unless they were using them as weapons. Then they would need to know to go with the RG62
Does a RG62 have more stopping power or something?
No. It's thicker and can withstand more when wrapped around the perps neck. I find that the RG58 breaks too often. However, a tweeker makes a good weapon to gouch out the perps eyes.
And your attenuators make great darts.
You can also use 400 Deg. C molten salt from a Hart Temp Bath.
Hey, I heard Pomona cables make good clotheslines. Apparently you can use them to hang your 10 MHz cable from the ceiling. You can impress your co-workers with your ingenuity. :lol:
Oh no they didn't?
It hasn't happened recently as far as I know. I'm just recounting what what your buddy did about a year or so ago. 8-)
Oh yeah, He's so smart. :|
Don't forget. He never had any formal PMEL training.
Yes, nor potty training. :|
Well, statistically speaking...if he sh--- himself only 2 out of 6 times, he's technically potty trained.
Statisitacally speaking, if you do stupid things 10 out of 10 times and say stupid things 11 out of 10 times then your Bob S. from Happy Valley. Statisitacally speaking of course.
Statistically speaking of course. :-D
Of course, you could be the guy working with Flynn. What's his name again? I forget the names of people who are insignificant.
Flynn's little helper? :?
Flynns bitch?
Yes, it's Super Dave! Able to place an item on AWT,AWS & AW? in a single key stroke. He has the ability to bad mouth a fellow employee without regaurd. Super Dave is now a QA God.
Doesn't Super Dave ride a motorcycle? :?