As I sit behind my desk writing a list of stuff to take on my calibration trip to the UAE 2moorow, a glorious thought crossed my brain housing group: Why don't we form a PMEL Union? If we all stick together, we could greatly reduce the amount of slave-serching PMEL companies looking to bend over good, knowlegeable, honest family men like ourselves by posting bogus cal jobs paying pennies on the dollar with crumbing benefits. Old Navy, Doc, and Thraxas could head it up, while In-Like-Flynn, myself, and Flew-da-Coupe could be in charge of employing strong-arm tactics of these multi-million dollar companies. We can have the whole PMEL industry on lock. Who's with me?
It might be an interesting way to a) 'calibrate' the salaries out there, and b) educate our employers and the public as to just what exactly we do.
Walk up to 100 people on the street at random and ask them what a metrologist does.
You'll get 100 blank stares... ...followed by "A weatherman!"
That attitude pervades the workplace, as well. Some employers don't have a good idea about just how demanding and technical our job is, and therefore pay you "pennies on the dollar," because that's what they think you're worth. My pharmaceutical company can't ship product unless the equipment we calibrate here is 'dress right dress' and working as advertised. How valuable is that?!?
It would be interesting to get paid what I'm worth. Maybe then I could afford a six-pack of beer and Hoopty would let me on his boat...
Doc, you're more than welcome on the boat... just bring that 6-pack and some of those stories you're holding out on.
BTW, when you guys get this set up, keep a cushy union rep spot open for me when I retire!
That would be great, but how are you going to get past the stupidity of those we work for ?
It's taken me years to beat it into thick heads that a single point verification is not a calibration.
The real cure is to force all managers and engineers to work at least 2 years in the metrology lab before they are allowed to design or to implement anything, once they find out that they can't get there without us maybe they would take us a little more seriously.
And yes each year I end up fighting the same old battles, just different adversaries.
Thraxas and inlikeFlynn has heard me preach this before. I hate unions, but something has got to be done. Right now I have a very well paying job, but I have not forgotten all my friends and coworkers who have not been as lucky. Even though I am very happy with my pay I still get pissed to hear a tech only getting payed $25 - $27 an hour. Even though I hate unions ( and everything else liberal ) I think I would back one for our profession. Make the move and I will have your back on this one.
Roger that....I'm on it like skank on, well, you know....We're going to be unstoppable! Hoffa who?
Some random thoughts...
• Lab managers should be making $35-$50/hour depending on experience, numbers of techs they manage, military/civilian, etc. Bonuses would apply to a manager who consistently scores well on lab evaluations (and since they're a good manager, the bonuses would also apply to the techs doing the good work on the equipment!);
• Special duty, such as QA, TODO, TFCU (on the road) would garner a $5/hour bump for a tech's salary;
• New techs would start at around $20-$25/hour depending on schooling, experience, etc.;
• COLA would apply as necessary (a California tech would make more than one in Montana, for example);
• A "skill level" system could be implemented to evaluate a tech based on education, years of experience, special schools, special assignments (i.e. AGMC, PMEL School), areas worked (i.e. I have worked everything except radiac, so I would be worth more than a tech who has worked only K1), etc.;
• Deployment to fun spots like Afghanistan, Iraq, or Minot would bring in serious salary bumps (I'm just kidding about Minot- nobody shooting at you there unless it's hunting season and you're in the way of the Vice President);
• 401K and/or retirement plans should be portable (our kind tends to move around a bit);
• Health insurance might be gotten at a nice group rate if we had a few thousand members in a union; it also needs to have an international reach for our brothers and sisters overseas;
• Relocation allowances would be the norm, rather than the exception (if you have a talented K6 tech in Georgia, and a client wants them in Ohio, they should pay to get them to Ohio)
These are things a union could fight for, and maybe we would get the pay and respect we deserve. We are a unique, highly intelligent, highly diversified group of people, and maybe we deserve a little better than we're currently getting. Collective bargaining works for football players to air traffic controllers, so why not for metrologists?
Any feedback?
Step promotions
Quote from: docbyers on 03-10-2006 -- 10:55:34
Some random thoughts...
• Lab managers should be making $35-$50/hour depending on experience, numbers of techs they manage, military/civilian, etc. Bonuses would apply to a manager who consistently scores well on lab evaluations (and since they're a good manager, the bonuses would also apply to the techs doing the good work on the equipment!);
• Special duty, such as QA, TODO, TFCU (on the road) would garner a $5/hour bump for a tech's salary;
• New techs would start at around $20-$25/hour depending on schooling, experience, etc.;
• COLA would apply as necessary (a California tech would make more than one in Montana, for example);
• A "skill level" system could be implemented to evaluate a tech based on education, years of experience, special schools, special assignments (i.e. AGMC, PMEL School), areas worked (i.e. I have worked everything except radiac, so I would be worth more than a tech who has worked only K1), etc.;
• Deployment to fun spots like Afghanistan, Iraq, or Minot would bring in serious salary bumps (I'm just kidding about Minot- nobody shooting at you there unless it's hunting season and you're in the way of the Vice President);
• 401K and/or retirement plans should be portable (our kind tends to move around a bit);
• Health insurance might be gotten at a nice group rate if we had a few thousand members in a union; it also needs to have an international reach for our brothers and sisters overseas;
• Relocation allowances would be the norm, rather than the exception (if you have a talented K6 tech in Georgia, and a client wants them in Ohio, they should pay to get them to Ohio)
These are things a union could fight for, and maybe we would get the pay and respect we deserve. We are a unique, highly intelligent, highly diversified group of people, and maybe we deserve a little better than we're currently getting. Collective bargaining works for football players to air traffic controllers, so why not for metrologists?
Any feedback?
Hell no on the QA getting $5/hr more.......sorry I just have a bad taste for that one. Maybe if they could perform all the task without needing assistance and put in a full days work.....etc. Not bringing write ups to me and asking what happened in the cal after 9 months have elapsed :x
Bonus programs should award those that are doing the work the most.
Remember Avionics are a higher payscale than PMEL in civil service. Making those people understand that it is not the price of the stuff you work on that sets the pay scale but the nature of that work..........sorry if we fix and calibrate everything in Avionics then I would think that the two fields would be on atleast equal footing.
Count me in, if not a Union at least a professional organization
It's a nice thought. However, I'm not a management type, and I dislike unions in general.
Quote from: Thraxas on 03-12-2006 -- 08:53:36
It's a nice thought. However, I'm not a management type, and I dislike unions in general.
Don't look at it as a typical union. What would happened to the industry (everything from aviation to biomed field) if we all just said,' Ok that's it. I fed up with this crap!" The problem is that the higher ups don't really know our worth. We're not common field hands or peasants (sorry if any of you are, I love corn...I really do), we're highly trained professionals. Most of these guys don't know a fuse from a battery and the they take everything for granite. If you guys are like me, I tired of jumpimg thru hoops. Calibrate your own sh*t.
Quote from: InLikeFlynn on 03-17-2006 -- 23:12:21
At least with a union we actually get a voice. :mrgreen:
Yeah, but whose voice?
The basic problem with a union, and I'm in one, is that you have to be willing to say "No F-ing way, I'm not going to work and not getting a paycheck" for whatever you want to negotiate for. That's the basic problem. You have to be willing to strike for what you want. When it comes down to it, very few are willing to go that far.
That basic failing is also its greatest strength. the company (the MAN!) thinks you're willing to chuck it all over any little thing. It's a balance, a line that must be walked by all, some might say...a dance. The other advantage is that any disciplinary action must be thoroughly scrutinized by management. Less likelyhood of getting fired for something stupid. It also creates a situation where people who should have gone a long time ago, have the opportunity to stay. The union says it isn't in the business of keeping bad employees, but if one wants to fight, the union almost HAS to go down that road. Waste of time for all involved.
I think a union has it's uses, but don't think it'll solve all your problems, cause it won't.
I say we all quit are jobs and start a calibration monopoly. We can be just like Wally world. We will charge people less until we drive out all the competition then we can raise our prices!!! Who's with me!! mwuuu hahahahahahahaha
I am not a union type of person, but we are union here, and they did increase our pay. Other than that, they are not worth much. I would not strike unless I felt like it was necessary. I definitely would not because they told me too.
The thing about a union is you become a commodity. An hour of a metrologist's time is worth X. Doesn't matter if you are good at what you do or if you just put in the minimum effort. You will make X. If you really want to break out of the low pay problem, become so good that your employer couldn't imagine doing business without you. Yes, it takes a lot of work. It's easier to go home and knock down a six pack than to brush up on electronics theory, but it is the only way you will be guaranteed to suceed. If your employer doesn't increase your pay, take those skills elsewhere. If you are that good you will be in demand. Your skills are your security- you never have to worry about losing a job.
And then they returned to the real world. Not sure what you guys are talking about, the unions do alot more than just increase your pay. If you are working for a contractor at an AF PMEL this is the only way you can protect yourself. If you think just by being better than the others will get you a pay raise you are sadly mistaken
Then find a place to work that values those skills and let the people who have average skills work at a place that gives everyone average pay. Or if you are one of those average skilled (or below) people - then stay where you are, keep drawing your average pay and be happy. Not everyone can be a high acheiver.
I know this is a little off topic, but, an alternative to a Union might be starting your own small business. How many Government owned Contractor run PMEL's are out there? Where the contractor supplies nothing but personel. A few dozen qualified PMEL techs could get together and bid on an upcoming contract and when/if they win, they could run the lab and profit the full amount of the contract. I know i am talking out of my butt a little here, and wouldn't know where to start, but look around at your lab. . . . how many tech's would get on board with you? It's probably a lot of work, but the payoff would be huge, not only with pay, but with working conditions ect. I might be a little niave, but it's just a thought.
Not a bad idea. Gov't purchasing gives preferential treatment to minority and women-owned businesses, so make the wife the President of the company and go for it...
Should anyone want to start their own lab, feel free to contact me by pm on the forum here. I can probably offer quite a bit of help regarding the mechanics of starting a business, incorporating, financing, etc. I already crossed those hurdles a few years ago and don't mind sharing my experience.
All I have to say to this recent form your own buisness is...............................
Are you an Alaskan Natvie company??
If not don't even try for the contracts
Quote
Are you an Alaskan Native company??
They really have air force contract awarding set up for exploitation. Is KBR Alaskan owned too?
Halliburton?
Or were none of their contracts for the AF?
I think Yulista has that on lock...
The problem with starting your own lab is cost...
So what you are saying is I should get the same raise some numb-nuts does that spends most of his time trying to figure out how to get someone else to do his work?
I should get my paycheck skimmed and probably part of it will go to promote whatever Democrat is running for President.
What'll happen is you'll find manuals and test programs are easily translated in to Chinese.
Don't mean to sound cold hearted but I work on merit.
Quote from: Bryan on 01-02-2008 -- 16:06:55
So what you are saying is I should get the same raise some numb-nuts does that spends most of his time trying to figure out how to get someone else to do his work?
I should get my paycheck skimmed and probably part of it will go to promote whatever Democrat is running for President.
What'll happen is you'll find manuals and test programs are easily translated in to Chinese.
Don't mean to sound cold hearted but I work on merit.
You hit the nail on the head...
Quote from: Broken_Wings on 12-29-2007 -- 07:47:53
Quote
Are you an Alaskan Native company??
They really have air force contract awarding set up for exploitation. Is KBR Alaskan owned too?
Halliburton?
Or were none of their contracts for the AF?
Well look at who has the contracts. Gold Belt Falcon (ANC) has the AFPSL not Bionetics, though you can't tell the two apart because Bionetics is a mentor to GBF. They learned after Yulista yanked the ACC/AMC contract out from under em.
Look to Yulista, which is Calista, which also has Chuelista...etc.
Just saw a company with no calibration experience get a Navy contract.....Alluetiq, they got it basically as a no bid, disadvantage alaskan native corp......oh yeah and small buisness......they have 2000+ employees. They like the others have many other divisions ready to step up.
KBR and haliburton are doing mainly overseas labs.
Ever wonder why the big names are no longer in the military contracts??
Yea lets do it so I can talk to the union rep in his $2000 armani suit manicured hands and $1500 shoes that my dues paid for so he can get me a dollar an hour raise but charge me a dollar fifty an hour in dues
HMM your post appears to be a bit sarcastic Mr Skolito?? May haps you have had a bad experience with a union in the past? Hey if unions can pay people painting $35 an hour than I would assume they could get us $60-70 an hour.
Just a few problems. Unions got the entire PMEL lab fired at one of my last jobs by playing games with the management. Unions had a place 30-35 years ago but today the only cause people to loose there jobs. Carrier corp. closed there NY plants and moved them to NC because of unions pulling the we'll strike if you dont give us a 10% pay raise, better this better that. Carrier had enough and closed the plant 15000 people lost there jobs. I cant even work in certian states because I am not a union member.
Additional problems with starting a union. First, you have to get everyone together, some are hourly, some are salaried, what about those that are still serving in the military, very difficult to get a consensus. Second, if you manage to get one, whatever you had before in now on the table to be negotiated. Therefore vacation, health, holidays, retirement, pay, etc. has be put into the contract. Third, would be negotiations with every lab in the country.
Yes, I have been in several unions and worked with several more. A union is not always the best answer, education of the management team is an option.
I do agree that there are some significant pitfalls to unions. A co-worker years ago told me in the union lab where he worked, there were equipment handlers who brought items to and from your bench, and there would be a grievance generated if you were caught moving instruments to or from your bench. This caused a lot of bottlenecks.
Also, when my wife a number of years ago worked in a store that considered unionizing, a lot of those pitfalls became evident such as that a union doesn't guarantee any better pay or working conditions; they often produce more restrictive, less productive work environments, take dues and don't allow you to work if a strike is declared.
One alternate thought might be via something such as CCT (ASQ), NCSLI, or other similar organization to develop a standard set of recommended pay standards so that when companies hire techs, there is a recognized and respected industry standard.
Just a thought.
MIRCS - Goldbelt Falcon does not have the AFPSL contract, they have the Logistics contract at the AFPSL. Goldbelt is a subcontractor to Bionetics.
Bionetics has the calibration and T.O. portions of the AFPSL contract.
Quote from: deerhunter on 01-05-2008 -- 07:21:40
MIRCS - Goldbelt Falcon does not have the AFPSL contract, they have the Logistics contract at the AFPSL. Goldbelt is a subcontractor to Bionetics.
Bionetics has the calibration and T.O. portions of the AFPSL contract.
Sorry, misunderstood their proposal package, when they were showing what cal contracts they were working on.