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K Sections => K3/4 - Waveform Analysis & RF Generation => Topic started by: Hawaii596 on 07-11-2011 -- 09:55:55

Title: Timebase Cal Problem on HP 53131A SW Cal
Post by: Hawaii596 on 07-11-2011 -- 09:55:55
I run into this every once in a while, and wondering if anyone else has seen it.  When doing the software cal on an HP 53131A with 010 or 012 time base, every once in a while I get one that has an offset.  I am using my Rubidium, and I have two identical units that have both been warming up at least 72 hours (last time I ran into this I had about 6 units all with OPT 010 or 012).  I unsecure the cal mode, input the 10 MHz, and when it is done, I have a little offset.  Like with resolution of 0.1 mHz (milli Hertz), I get an offset of about 25.5 mHz (not MHz).  I have two counters.  One cals fine, and with the same resolution, I get a predictable one or two counts of offset just due to instability/noise, etc.  But the second unit, I get the above offset.  I re-ran the software cal and get about the same results on both counters.  Same thing happened on the last one (a few m onths ago).  I recall on the other one, I repeated the SW cal a few times, and it did the same thing each time.  So I don't believe I am doing anything wrong.  I tried adding a feedthrough term, and no effect.  I think there is something wrong with the counter.  Maybe a noisy A/D circuit or something (maybe a leaky capacitor somewhere??).  Just wondering if anyone else has had that problem.
Title: Re: Timebase Cal Problem on HP 53131A SW Cal
Post by: PMEL Whore on 07-12-2011 -- 06:12:38
What if you took a sig gen, tied it to your rubidium and then input a 10 MHz signal that is offset by the offset you are seeing, does that solve the problem, basically lie to the UUT.
Title: Re: Timebase Cal Problem on HP 53131A SW Cal
Post by: Hawaii596 on 07-12-2011 -- 07:36:23
I actually thought of trying that.  One thought I have is that the offset may be a multiple of power line frequency (possibly indicating a leaky capacitor somewhere).  Problem is, the incoming shelves are full.  So I have to set it aside.  One other experimental thought I have is try reducing the resolution and seeing if I get the same approximate three digits of offset, but pushed over by what ever resolution I set to (for example, if I change resolution to 10 Hz, if the offset changes to 2550 Hz (still corresponding to the bottom three digits), which would still lean toward a leaky cap or equivalent, but associated with A/D circuitry..... this, once I have actual time to work on it.
Title: Re: Timebase Cal Problem on HP 53131A SW Cal
Post by: andyc_more on 01-10-2014 -- 09:27:13
Yes - I've seen this ( I have a 53131A and 53181A ).
It looks like the auto calibrate function is a little buggy.
It has also been noticed here http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-010-high-stability-timebase-option/ (http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-010-high-stability-timebase-option/)

The video has a section which shows the auto calibration procedure performing the magic
( a binary search - and a dac to control the OCXO )

The calibration will even fail sometimes when it should not.
Title: Re: Timebase Cal Problem on HP 53131A SW Cal
Post by: andyc_more on 01-10-2014 -- 09:47:45
Also - be aware that some rubidium oscillators 'sweep' around the 10.000000Mhz
As far as I recall the 10Mhz is locked to a microwave source which is swept in frequency around the absorption line for rubidium plasma. A light cell detects a dip in the absorption - which indicates the correct frequency - so you're always going to get 10Mhz +/- some very small amount swept at some rate (416.6Hz has been mentioned)
I've had better results manually adjusting a very good ocxo to match the rubidium , and then using the ocxo to calibrate the 53131A.
Standard rubidium oscillators are not very good over the short term - and I think the 53131A calibration method is too short.
Title: Re: Timebase Cal Problem on HP 53131A SW Cal
Post by: Hawaii596 on 01-10-2014 -- 16:26:24
This has been a while now.  But I feel like the Rubidium is not the culprit.  We use it all the time on many counters.  It's short and long term stability is quite a bit better.  If I recall that day, I had a stack of 53131A's and 53132A's.  They all cal'd perfectly except that one.  Seemed like it was something weird in the 53131A/2A.  I don't think that particular unit is around.  Just a strange mystery.
Title: Re: Timebase Cal Problem on HP 53131A SW Cal
Post by: andyc_more on 01-11-2014 -- 03:16:31
If it was repeatable then definitely a fault with the counter - the issues I've seen usually clear after a couple of recal attempts.
A nice page comparing the short/medium/longterm stability of certain rubidium standards
is at http://www.ke5fx.com/rb.htm (http://www.ke5fx.com/rb.htm)