PMEL Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: NRA4Life on 02-04-2006 -- 18:37:34

Title: Laboratory Policies
Post by: NRA4Life on 02-04-2006 -- 18:37:34
You think you have it bad where you're at?  Check out this micro-managing policy recently implemented at Wyle Laboratories (contractor) at the Patrick AFB Florida Electronic PMEL.  Sounds like just the place you want to work doesn't it?  By the way, the contract is going up for bid at Patrick this year.  Obviously, the contractor is trying to milk all the $$ out of this contract in the last year with policies like this.  Feel free to comment, maybe it will get back to these morons.

" From: Martinez, John A
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 12:51 PM
Subject: Lab Production Policies
Importance: High

ALL,

Per our Crew Meeting last week, the following policies are to be implemented for Air Force TMDE - effective immediately: 

*  Calibration Specialists are authorized ONE HOUR to troubleshoot/repair an item of AF owned equipment, regardless of whether it is tracked in PAMS or MIS.
*  At the conclusion of that hour, the Lab Supervisor will have the authority to authorize ONE additional hour if it appears the troubleshooting/repair can be completed within that time frame. 
*  The Technician performing the troubleshooting/repair must request this time and receive approval PRIOR to continuing with the effort.
*  ALL expenditures of troubleshooting/repair time which would exceed that ONE additional hour must be authorized by the PMEL E Manager PRIOR to continuing with the repair.
*  ALL expenditures of troubleshooting/repair time beyond eight hours TOTAL require the PRIOR approval of the Laboratories Department Manager.
*  Effective immediately, Calibration Specialists are authorized ONE HOUR of adjustment time for an item of AF equipment, regardless of whether it is tracked in PAMS or MIS.
*  At the conclusion of that hour, the Lab Supervisor will have the authority to authorize ONE additional hour if it appears the adjustment can be completed within that time frame.   
*  The Technician performing the adjustment must request this time and receive approval PRIOR to continuing with the adjustment.
*  ALL expenditures of adjustment time which would exceed that ONE additional hour must be authorized by the PMEL E Manager PRIOR to continuing with the adjustment.
*  ALL expenditures of adjustment time beyond four hours TOTAL require the prior approval of the Laboratories Department Manager.   
*  For purposes of troubleshooting/repair authorization and adjustment authorization, the Laboratories Department Manager will be the designated alternate during the absence of the PMEL E manager.  The Laboratories Technical Manager will be the designated alternate during the absence of the Laboratories Department Manager.   
 
Appropriate changes to the CAL P's are being worked to reflect these policies.

John"

Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Old-Navy on 02-04-2006 -- 19:44:03
OUCH...  I wouldn't even put up with that.

BTW..  didn't they USED to have the contract at Wright/Patt?
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Freezer on 02-04-2006 -- 20:32:26
You gotta be joking!!!!  I think a ritual "kissing the posterior" would be in order.

  What was the reason for this policy?

Not a chance of you guys being Union, is there?

Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: NRA4Life on 02-04-2006 -- 21:11:14
I think Raytheon had the contract at Wright/Patterson, Wyle used to have the AFPSL contract.

Patrick AFB PMEL is a union shop.  The reasoning behind it...I don't know...the management has always been a bunch of micro-managing under-my-thumb a**holes.

Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Freezer on 02-04-2006 -- 22:24:07
And the union is cool with this change to SOP?

 SOME of the unions have been good at keeping this sort of thing from happneing.  Obviously, not yours though?  Steward need a kick in the butt?
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: NRA4Life on 02-05-2006 -- 13:22:40
The local IBEW has always been "in bed" with management, they are a bunch of spineless wonders...and I'm sure the Air Force hasn't gotten wind of the new policy, there's no way they'd buy into it.

This is just another micro-management policy is a long line of years and years of micro-managing B.S. policies.

As a good friend put it:
"Backlog is soaring, morale is circling the bowl, and this is just the latest in a series of micro-managing counterproductive bonehead moves..."
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flamy78 on 02-05-2006 -- 18:09:24
I would sincerely hope that after an hour you get to NRTS it or force a limitation on the customer for them still sending in 30+ year old sh!t.

IOW - What do they do if they can't troubleshoot/fix/align the item in that time?
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: NRA4Life on 02-05-2006 -- 19:26:57
It isn't only the 30+ yr. old junk, it's everything.  And as far as what will be done if the troubleshooting/alignment can't be accomplished within the time limit...we'll see...the policy was just implemented on this past Friday.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: docbyers on 02-06-2006 -- 12:34:43
Sounds like trying to increase egg production by strangling the chicken!

Sometimes I'm grateful to run a civilian shop.  I answer to my boss, the clients, and the FDA, and we're non-union.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: NRA4Life on 02-06-2006 -- 15:12:13
I guess using that analogy, you could say they are a bunch of chicken chokers.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Hornet on 02-07-2006 -- 15:15:42
If it takes "Hours to troubleshoot" and "All day to align" you might want to think about making the Air Force your career. Taking all day on one piece of equipment doesn't lend to a secure job in the civilian sector.

Business is for profit. Past performance and cost is key in procurring and maintaining contracts. If there is no profit, there is no business.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: docbyers on 02-07-2006 -- 16:20:58
Hornet is right, of course, but one has to remember that the military is NOT a profit-motivated enterprise.  They go kill people for a living.  If the piece of equipment that allows them to do that safely and effectively takes all day to troubleshoot and tweak, then so be it.

Now, a civilian contractor is motivated by profit, but they have to consider the mission requirements of the organization they have a contract with.  They have to remember that they can crank out 50 Simpson 260AFP-1s a day, but only one TTU-205.  Did they contract by piece-work or labor hours?  Is their performance measured by how many pieces of TMDE they crank out a week/month/year, or by how well that TMDE worked when the customer fixed a bomb delivery system?

A PMEL contractor looks at a lab, says "OK, I have 10 people, that's 20,800 hours a year, average rate is $30 an hour, that's $624,000, plus overhead and profit- I'll bid $1MM for the year..."  I doubt they're losing money if a tech does a good job on a TTU-205...

I think capitalism works fine when Boeing sells the USAF a couple hundred fighter jets, but not so well for the shop that has to maintain them on a base somewhere...  It's a different set of paradigms when your client is the military, and not the local widget vendor...
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Freezer on 02-07-2006 -- 16:41:38
I agree with Docbyers! 

I'm guessing there is more at work here than just management messing with the employees.  There must be some other motivation. 
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Hornet on 02-09-2006 -- 17:43:38
I don't disagree in the least with Docbyers.

But do remember that the parts and equipment bought for the Air Force to do the job is manufactured by commercial sources. AFMETCAL would find most of the metrology programs at these sources deficient, if inspected to Air Force criteria.

So is the AFMETCAL program head & shoulders above commercial sources or are they trying to maintain an archaic kingdom?

I have lived as an Air Force PMEL Troop, an Air Force contractor, and a civilian metrologist. Civilian metrologist is bar none the best of the three.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: deerhunter on 02-10-2006 -- 00:16:12
I've got to disagree there.  I've been active duty PMEL, Air Force contract PMEL, and worked in a Civilian Commercial Lab and the Air Force has the best metrology program, bar none. 

Maybe if you consider the paperwork to be the most important part of a quality product, then maybe I would agree that commercial is "better".  If your traceability is not an issue, then yes, the commercial sector is better.  The Air Force has calibration procedures...while not the best...are a hell of a lot better than any commercial procedures I ever saw or COM DATA that I've used.

Just remember what "Sub-par" metrology program got you your start and experience to obtain your gravy-train job you have right now.

Getting back on the thread...the people running that Patrick AFB lab have to be absolute idiots.  How could anyone work under those micro-management conditions?
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: dallanta on 03-09-2006 -- 02:44:14
ROFL, I read this for the  first time, hoping you are joking, but can see you are not.  How has it been going since they started this crap?
  Yep a few nrts and calls to the item managers and the poop would be in the fan I hope.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 03-17-2006 -- 15:40:35
If AFMETCAL is so much better than civilian than I guess taking as found and as left data for tracking trends in error is a waste of time.  AFMETCAL does not require this, But NIST does. I guess NIST needs to be sending there stuff to AFMETCAL for cal. Give me a break. You like Airforce labs because they are easier. I worked under NRC for a standards lab for nuclear power plants and the requirments there make 00-20-14 look like a Joke. I also have worked in a Air Force lab so I know what I am talking about. You may have worked for a joke lab in the civilian sector which has given you the wrong idea about civilian metrology.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 03-17-2006 -- 16:07:47
I also guess the K procedures  are better because they don't check every 10% of each range on something like multimeters. That one point check is much more reliable. God forbid no one has ever heard of linearity errors on a meter.  Or just requiring only 6 frequency points on an attenuator like lets say a DC-18GHz and you check 2G, 5G , 8G, 10G, 14G and 18GHz God forbid there will be a hole at 6.5GHz. I can go on all day long. AFMETCAL is actually behind the curve. Hell they are just now getting into automation.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: MIRCS on 03-17-2006 -- 16:23:23
I agree.  Hmmm....the dreaded as found/as left data.....all filled out by hand due to Part 11 of the CFR's

I miss the days of just looking at the display and moving on..........

and to continue with what was being said....................why is the 470 20" Sine Bar not calibrated for flatness?????????????
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 03-17-2006 -- 18:12:33
Here is another AFMETCAL super metrology moment: For the longest time AFMETCAL had on their website that you should clean your Ruska 2465 high pressure piston with acetone. Their statment " this should give you about 7-8 could readings before you need to clean the piston again". Well, I say just clean the piston like Ruska suggest with cashmire bouquet soap and you can get about 200-300 good readings. AFMETCAL does it again. Will someone please back up AFMETCAL before I really start tearing apart some airmans heart who thinks AFMETCAL is GOD. I guess not, because you can't. I just think it is funny when someone thinks a government entity is better than the private sector.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: MIRCS on 03-17-2006 -- 18:33:53
I just think it is funny when someone thinks a government entity is better than the private sector.

Well that's a double edged sword there. On one hand they are better.......the military in general. On the other some parts of the private sector are light years ahead......while other parts are just figuring out a round wheel is better.

Nuclear Power..........is probably light years ahead of most. Pharma.......well some are and some aren't, but they are being forced into it as we speak.

I currently work in Pharmacueticals and I can without a doubt say................the people here that matter....ie QA, Validation and manufacturing.............really ain't gotta a clue at this site. I am the first person to work at this site with any metrology training.......eye opener to say the least to myself and those that work here. we are slowly working through the problems.......this place will be rock solid soon and we will be in line with the majority of the private sector that is lightyears ahead of the military.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 03-17-2006 -- 19:24:57
Hey MIRCS,
  Are you an old IM. I was an IM before I went to ET school. IM "A" School, Pensacola FL. April 1990.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: MIRCS on 03-17-2006 -- 20:59:52
Hey MIRCS,
  Are you an old IM. I was an IM before I went to ET school. IM "A" School, Pensacola FL. April 1990.  :mrgreen:

How else do you think I know what MIRCS is. IM "A" school Pensacola 91

IM's RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

USS Prairie
USS McKee
USS Cape Cod
SIMA San Diego
TRF Bangor
UNCC Metrology Center
Moody AFB PMEL
Hospira
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: MIRCS on 03-17-2006 -- 21:01:42
And actually I remember one of the recent worldwides had concern for the Phys-D world since there were no more IM's, and that skill would be lost to all.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Hoopty on 03-17-2006 -- 21:10:17
Alright, here's my 2Ę on the subject...

On the one hand, we are all metrologists here.  Pretty cut and dried.  Ultimately, we make quantitative measurements by comparing a known standard to an unknown.  We're not engineers or rocket scientists, nor do I think a monkey should be doing our job.  We're not saving the world, but the world definitely needs us around.

On the other hand, each sector has a different mission with different priorities.  The private sector is primarily about the bottom line.  While the AF is bombs on target.  Sure, money is a concern, but not nearly to the extent that it is in a commercial lab.  You just can't compare the two.  You're comparing apples to oranges.

If AFMETCAL is such a joke, why aren't more planes falling out of the sky?  Is it perfect?  No way.  But it works for us.  Is the private sector perfect?  I doubt it (can't atest to that as I have no first hand knowledge).  But again, it seems to work for them.

Sure the K-pros have problems, but you mean to tell me the commercial procedures get it right every time?  Again, I doubt it.

Now, I'm not trying to get involved in a pissing match here.  And I'm not your "airman that thinks AFMETCAL is God" either.  I just don't think that you can accurately state that one program is better than the other.  I don't think that anybody's program is perfect, and you really can't run the comparison that you're trying to.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: docbyers on 03-18-2006 -- 11:51:59
Hoopty and Flynn make good points.  Generally speaking, I think it might all come down to the mission.  In the military, it's "bombs on target."  In the civilian world, it's profit.  Is there a way to find a balance between what needs to be calibrated to accomplish the mission versus how effectively can we do it so that we can make a buck?

Take the 4x principle, for instance.  In PMEL School we were taught that this rule worked pretty well- your standard needs to be 4x more accurate than what you're testing.  Fluke, Tek, H/P- they all made calibrators and signal generators that performed nicely for the meters and scopes we worked on, and DOD was happy to buy what we needed.  Now, here is what guys like MIRCS and I go through routinely: you have a nice weight scale to calibrate, and you want weights that are 4x better than the scale.  First thing you have to do is explain the 4x principle to management, who's usual response is "The weights cost HOW MUCH?!?"  Then you do a thorough evaluation of just how accurate the scale needs to be for what you're weighing, and find that, well, yeah, I DO need weights that good.  You get your weights eventually, after much wailing and gnashing of teeth...  MIRCS' experience is like mine- nobody but me in the plant is PMEL-trained, and no one, from the president to the janitor, know what metrology is all about.

I think another difficulty comes from the fact that all good metrologists are military or ex-military (we all went to the same school, either in Colorado or Mississippi).  It's easy to work for a contract lab at a military base.  It gets a little harder to work in a purely civilian environment, because we're trying to apply our military training and experience to a civilian job.  Again, the mission is different, and we have to adjust our thinking accordingly.  When I wore a uniform to work every day, all I worried about was doing high-quality calibration work in a timely manner- that was it.  These days, I worry about the cost of weights, and do I really need the uber-spiffy ones, or can I get by with a cheaper set?  I WANT the uber-spiffy ones, because then there's never any question about my scales, BUT I have a budget that doesn't leave me enough money for paper for the tractor-fed printer...

At the end it all comes down to doing what is right from a metrology standpoint; it costs what it costs, and I can usually justify the expense of the nice weights or the Fluke DMM vs a Radio Shack model...  Getting my troops paid what they're worth- now there's the next battle to fight.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: OlDave on 03-18-2006 -- 12:35:34
OK, let me toss my grenade in here as well....

I have to agree that the military (at least the AF) provides a good starting point. But the AF does NOT make metrologists. They provide you with the basics to understand and repair electronics and a little of the theory to understand the importance of calibration. I thought I was pretty damn good with 20+ years of experience in both type 2B and 2C labs, numerous advanced courses at Lowry, and experience prototyping instruments for AGMC, but I was absolutely HUMBLED at how little I knew about metrology (the actual SCIENCE of measurement) when I took my first course at NIST.

Control charts? F tests? T tests? Statistical analysis? Propagation of uncertainty? Uncertainty analysis? Guard Banding? All unknown quantities with the AF. I had the mechanics, but I had to mentally move to another level of thinking. Thatís when I realized that the AF only has calibration technicians. AFMETCAL does not allow you to be metrologists, and honestly, most people in the lab couldnít cut it.

How many of you have the tools in place to detect a 0.5 microgram shift on a 1 milligram weight? How do you know for an absolute certainty that you didnít have a speck of dust on your standard 2 gram weight that you just used to calibrate another weight with? Has your SPRTís Ro drifted a couple of milli K? What confidence level do you report you measurements to? Can you pull the historical data on an item and see how the previous calibrations differ from this time? What are you going to do about it?

But does the AF need that level of metrology? No, in most cases not. But on the same token they need to encourage the people that can and do master the statistical witchcraft of metrology instead of blindly requiring conformance to a calibration procedure that may or may not be correct or adequate. But now youíre expected to detect and correct the difference in the 18 character part number that signifies the pressure gage you just stamped should have a phenolic case with a male pipe thread connector instead of the cast aluminum female thread it has. Is that really that important to the accuracy or reliability of the item?

How many of you participate in proficiency tests or inter-laboratory comparisons? ISO 17025 practically requires that you do that. How else can you measure how your capabilities compare to both what you report and the capabilities of other labs? Back in the REALLY old days AGMC used to send artifacts out to the labs to be measured. But that usually required people to think outside of the box, something that is discouraged or prohibited now days.

Unfortunately I have found that in most cases the military calibration program and the associated regulations and procedures are written for the lowest common denominator, i.e. the newest or dumbest person in the lab. So make the most of the training and experience the military offers but always keep an open mind because there is a LOT more out there in this field than you are probably aware of.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Hoopty on 03-20-2006 -- 17:32:26
OK, so now it's about the fact that we're not really metrologists in the AF...   :-D

If you want to get technical, no we're not.  And really, I can buy that.  We (the majority of us AF types anyway) are just calibration techs pretending to be metrologists.  OlDave, hit the nail on the head in his post.  With the key point being, that it's not necessary for AFMETCAL to take it to that level for the most part.  Good stuff to be aware of, but not a necessity for the average joe.

BUT, the point I was trying to make in my post, was that even though we all work in the same metrology (or calibration) world, the roads lead to different places.  And you just can't say that one is better than the other... because what works for one, may not work for the other.


Now, I'm all for discussion, but it seems to me that this thread has gotten way out of control.  I've thought and thought and thought about this and even attempted to draft a decent reply, but in the end it made my head hurt and it was mostly just rambling.  I don't know, maybe this just shows my ignorance about the overall big picture...
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: OlDave on 03-20-2006 -- 22:43:45
Well itís nice to see I wasnít locked out and banned from the forumÖ.

I apologize to Hoopty and anyone else that feels I cut just a little deep on my last post. But I believe the point I was trying to make was made. The AF PMEL world has a basket load (not an SI unit) of outstanding calibration technicians. But in my opinion there are few, if any, true metrologists doing true metrology work even at the AFMETCAL level.

There is a world of difference in the requirements at every place you will ever work. Some places are in it for the money, some places are in it to keep the FDA off their butt, others are concerned with keeping the missiles locked on target. But we all have very little other than our own personal integrity that keeps us honest and the data correct. And thatís the thing that sets PMEL troops apart from the rest. When WE say itís right, you can bet your a$$ on it!
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Freezer on 03-20-2006 -- 23:55:19
I got nothin..

   Cept maybe a statement that I'm proud to be whatever I am, and that most of the "work related" part of what I am is because of AFMETCAL, in a trickle down sort of way.  If I'm a calibrator, well then, I'm proud to do that for a living.

  If someone wants to call me a Metrologist, that's OK too.  In the same sort of way my wife believes the measurements in the bedroom are correct, if you get my drift :wink:.

 I'm not pretending to be more than I am, or less, I'm just happy to be in the career field, with a big ol' bunch of very inteligent and equally proud people, call them what you want (they've probably been called worse).

  Discourse and debate is good, but let's not let it get too out of hand.  Remember, this is FUN!  Go read some of Docs jokes for heavens sake!  Make fun of Minot!  Tell InLikeFlynn he has a big nose!  The possibilities are endless...

(Is that a Lee Greenwood song in the background?) 
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Hoopty on 03-21-2006 -- 03:55:28
No apology necessary OlDave.  It wasn't that it cut deep.  In fact, I truly hadn't ever thought that much about the term "metrologist" and all that is required of one.  Which would put your post spot-on for me as an AF calibrator. 

I now understand that all this time I've used the term metrologist loosely when it didn't exactly pertain to me.  Like Freezer, I don't want to pretend to be something I'm not.  So, I'm going to give up all that comes with that title (all the women and prestige) for now and continue to hone my skills until someday I can rightfully claim my reward!    Hoopty to wife:  It's an inside joke honey, I swear!  Read some of the other threads...

Anyway, I guess I was just frustrated because the point of my post really didn't have anything to do with being a "metrologist" per se.  It was more like "Hey, we all basically do the same thing here, but do things a little differently for different reasons"

Sorry if it seemed like I was lashing out.  I wasn't.  It's all good.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: docbyers on 03-21-2006 -- 17:20:38
Sing with us now, you know the music...

Proud To Be A Metrologist

If tomorrow all the things were gone Iíd worked for all my life,
And I had to start again with just my children and my wife.
Iíd thank my lucky stars to be a PMEL technician,
ĎCause thereís things that need calibrating and they canít take that away.

And Iím proud to be a metrologist where at least I know Iím free.
And I wonít forget the men who died, from electricity.
And Iíd gladly sit down next to you and take a coffee break.
ĎCause there ainít no doubt I love this lab God bless the PMEL way.

From the frozen plains of Minot, to the hills of Tennessee,
across the hills of Georgia, from sea to shining sea,
From Seattle down to Houston and New York to LA,
Well, thereís a lab in every American city,
and itís time to stand and say:

And Iím proud to be a metrologist where at least I know Iím free.
And I wonít forget the men who died, from electricity.
And Iíd gladly sit down next to you and take a coffee break.
ĎCause there ainít no doubt I love this lab God bless the PMEL way.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Freezer on 03-21-2006 -- 18:31:01
BWWWWHHHHHAAAA!!!!ROFL :-D

Way to go Doc!

You must have a lot of free time out there. 8-)
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: docbyers on 03-21-2006 -- 18:38:43
No, not that much, really.
BUT, you dangled the Lee Greenwood thing out there like a worm on a hook, and I just couldn't resist...
I will admit that 5 minutes of lyric-tweaking did NOT produce my best work.  I'll toy with it when I do have some time and see if I can improve it any...
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: MIRCS on 03-21-2006 -- 20:55:50
Here is what  NCSL and ASQ/MQD are giving for the metrology world as the job  descriptions.

Submit job descriptions for the 2005 SOC for the following job titles reflecting compiled
input from the U.S. Metrology / Calibration Industry:
ē Calibration Technician
ē Calibration Engineer
ē Metrologist

I can say I know where I would fall in that list.

Yes I have to worry about uncertanities and such......guard banding SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Alot of these issues I used to argue day in and day out with Kevin John at AFMETCAL. The whole way that dimensional accuracies are given..........worst case, newly trained...etc. I could prove to him over and over again how I would be able to calibrate items in a 72F enviroment to the accuracies given for 68F........he would agree, then always say.................."That is you and you are right, yet can you gaurantee me that every other person doing this cal in all the other labs can do it???" That used to sting and hurt, cause he was correct. Unlike many in the AF, I have had alot of Phys-D training due to my job in the Navy as do some others on this board.......actually it was what we did.....the amount of dimensional work we did would astound some of you AF types. I digress........the people I worked for in the Navy encouraged us to do the things that Ol Dave was speaking of......some did some didn't. I know it has helped me tremendously in my current job.....BTW the FDA can suc...nevermind.

To me we are all metrologist here at this website..........I work with some cal techs though
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: docbyers on 03-21-2006 -- 23:43:50
Ditto for the FDA...!!
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: OlDave on 03-22-2006 -- 00:49:00
Yeah, I remember having a few very similiar conversations with Kevin myself MIRCS.

I also remember a rather humorous (and frustrating) conversation with an AFMETCAL auditor, it went something to the effect of. "Well I don't understand what you're doing so it must be wrong." And this was while following a NIST SOP word for word.... But I'm quite sure he didn't understand it at all! But I don't think I'ld have the gonads to tell NIST they were wrong just because I didn't understand them. And on the other hand, I guess I was wrong for actually calibrating a weight set instead of just tolerance checking it. Silly me.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Freezer on 03-22-2006 -- 18:21:20
Sorry Flynn,

Made ya smile though, right? :-)  It's all worth it and life is good.  Just depends on how you look at it!

I went from an underpaid metrologist to an overpaid calibrator overnight.  Think I'll go out and buy a new truck! 

Truthfully, I have no idea about the size of ANY of InLikeFlynns appendages, nose or otherwise. 

Probably the stuff of legend...
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: docbyers on 03-22-2006 -- 19:22:14
Speaking of appendages, while I was at Ramstein there was a young man who may, or may not, have been playing with one of his, when his roommate in the squadron dormitory walked in to the room unexpectedly.  Said appendage player quickly rolled over on his bed to avoid an embarrassing display, and "broke" his appendage.  Yep.  Hospital time and all!

I was not a witness to this event, so I am only relaying the story as it was given to me, and begrudgingly confirmed by the victim of this tragedy...  This guy's girlfriend was a USAF nurse, and no, I don't know if he met her before or after this incident!

You can imagine his nickname for the remainder of his time with us...!

(Flynn, ask Chuck about this story; he'll verify!)
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 03-22-2006 -- 23:19:47
Ouch! :-o
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: NRA4Life on 03-24-2006 -- 15:46:35
Not good.  More to come later.  The only hope is that a new contractor gets the bid when the contract expires this year.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: docbyers on 03-31-2006 -- 19:38:31
Not a bad idea.  The USAF could bit out ALL the contract labs, awarding a multi-year contract to one vendor.  Of course, performance clauses would entail, but if the contractor has a decent crew, performance wouldn't be an issue, would it?  It would be handy if the company had a global reach, like a Schlumberger or General Dynamics, for example.  Overseas techs would get a base pay plus a COLA based on where they're at (England, Germany, Italy, wherever).  Deployed to a war zone?  Hazardous duty pay.  Health insurance could pay a fair price for military medical facilities, usually available near every base in the world.

How much money would the government save in admin costs alone?!?  Manage 30 contracts, or just 1?  Which is easier, more cost-effective, and efficient?  Monthly labor, overhead, and parts totals would be gathered and lumped together for a monthly invoice, and again, you have 1 check instead of 30 to pay the bill...  In the real world we call it "economy of scale."
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 03-31-2006 -- 22:52:49
As long as they don't make my "lab" contract, I'll be happy. :-D
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: docbyers on 04-17-2006 -- 17:17:41
I've taken the time to add a few verses...

Proud To Be A Metrologist

If tomorrow all the things were gone Iíd worked for all my life,
And I had to start again with just my children and my wife.
Iíd thank my lucky stars to be a PMEL technician,
ĎCause thereís things that need calibrating and they canít take that away.

And Iím proud to be a metrologist where at least I know Iím free.
And I wonít forget the men who died, from electricity.
And Iíd gladly sit down next to you and take a coffee break.
ĎCause there ainít no doubt I love this lab God bless the PMEL way.

From the frozen plains of Minot, to the hills of Tennessee,
across the hills of Georgia, from sea to shining sea,
From Seattle down to Houston and New York to LA,
Well, thereís a lab in every American city,
and itís time to stand and say:

That Iím proud to be a metrologist where at least I know Iím free.
And I wonít forget the men who died, from electricity.
And Iíd gladly sit down next to you and take a coffee break.
ĎCause there ainít no doubt I love this lab God bless the PMEL way.

From gas pumps to oíscopes to thermohumidographs
Every time Iím asked for a weather forecast I have to stop and laugh
ĎCause no one in America has a clue Ďbout what I do
But when your grapes weigh twenty pounds at Kroger, youíll understand it too.

That Iím proud to be a metrologist where at least I know Iím free.
And I wonít forget the men who died, from electricity.
And Iíd gladly sit down next to you and take a coffee break.
ĎCause there ainít no doubt I love this lab God bless the PMEL way.

Standard cells, multimeters, torque wrenches
We see them all come across our benches
We calibrate with precision, we certify with traceability
We never get paid what weíre worth; they think we work for free

But Iím proud to be a metrologist where at least I know Iím free.
And I wonít forget the men who died, from electricity.
And Iíd gladly sit down next to you and take a coffee break.
ĎCause there ainít no doubt I love this lab God bless the PMEL way.

Army, Air Force, Navy, or Marines
All our labs are super pristine
When it comes to intelligence you wonít beat us to the punch
In any branch of service, weíre the brightest of the bunch

And Iím proud to be a metrologist where at least I know Iím free.
And I wonít forget the men who died, from electricity.
And Iíd gladly sit down next to you and take a coffee break.
ĎCause there ainít no doubt I love this lab God bless the PMEL way.

Some of us retired, some of us have died,
Our last K-stamp at last has been applied
When we get to heaven, one question if you please
Can we have the thermostat set to seventy-two degrees?

And Iím proud to be a metrologist where at least I know Iím free.
And I wonít forget the men who died, from electricity.
And Iíd gladly sit down next to you and take a coffee break.
ĎCause there ainít no doubt I loved this life God bless the PMEL way.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 04-18-2006 -- 10:36:55
That brought tears to my eyes. :cry:
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: docbyers on 04-18-2006 -- 11:21:26
Damn- was it that bad?
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: NRA4Life on 04-18-2006 -- 15:45:01
October this year, but you never know if the USAF is going to extend it or not...and you don't want to work at Patrick unless there is a management change.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 04-18-2006 -- 23:20:52
That's a good point. The last thing Flynn needs is more migraines from another group of managers. :-D
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 04-22-2006 -- 02:20:03
I think an ice pick to the temple qualifies. :-D
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 04-25-2006 -- 17:00:17
You could get those migrains taken care of if you had better insurance. :-D
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 04-25-2006 -- 17:13:42
I tell you what used to make no sense to me. Why can't you wear your wedding ring when calibrating micrometers or PRT's? Hell, the AirForce won't let you do paper work wearing your necklace. I know the stupid reason they claim, but if the case of you catching on something is the reason then I guess we should not even wear pants. I mean a belt loop might get caught on something. You also shouldn't wear button up shirts because they can catch on something. Shoes with shoe strings should be banned as well. No loose fitting pants. They will next ask you to cut your fingers off because they can get in the way. FCKNG IDIOTS !!!!!!!!!!

Okay, I know it's the government, but what chaps my hide are the people that work with you that run and tell on you for wearing a watch while typing on your key board. And the supervisor that writes you up for it. These people suck and are hacks. I am glad I am in the civilian sector now, because I am wearing my wedding band, necklace, watch and my grandfathers ring and drinking Mountain Dew all at my bench. Man, it's nice to work with people with common sense. And yes I do take my rings off when inside equipment.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: OlDave on 04-25-2006 -- 22:27:36
I've got to agree with you 100% flew-da-coup. The same with my wire rim glasses. I'll never forget the first time I got knocked on my butt from the 9 inch arc of electricity from the LIG thermometer I was reading to the temple of my glasses. Talk about waking you up!!
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: bradley563 on 04-25-2006 -- 23:50:23
OK, flew-da-coup, the next time I come in to the Orlando shop if I see you running around naked I will have to resign and go to work for McDonalds.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 04-26-2006 -- 10:12:58
You won't find me naked. I wear a thong and pasties. :-D
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: bradley563 on 04-27-2006 -- 03:19:09
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




LOL
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 04-27-2006 -- 10:45:38
What? you don't like? :-D
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 04-29-2006 -- 15:25:26
OMG. Keep your clothes on!!!!! Nobody wants to see a naked redneck man running around.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 05-01-2006 -- 10:05:00
You don't have to be so mean about it. I'll put on a halter top.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 05-01-2006 -- 20:27:30
You can put on a halter top if you want. Just make sure you completely dressed before you do so.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 05-02-2006 -- 10:09:03
Hey, I'm just trying to work in a relaxed atmoshpere.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 05-02-2006 -- 19:43:24
You mean horrific atmosphere, right?
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 05-03-2006 -- 10:18:04
What, you don't like? :?
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 05-04-2006 -- 20:50:42
No. Keep your clothes on.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 05-04-2006 -- 21:27:27
Why? :?
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 05-05-2006 -- 00:41:02
My eyesight is bad as is. I don't want to lose it. You prancing around naked at work would make me go blind four hundred miles away. :roll:
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 05-05-2006 -- 10:44:13
You are 400 miles away.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 05-05-2006 -- 19:47:32
I know. My vision's already getting blurry. Put your clothes on. :-D
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 05-06-2006 -- 13:17:50
NRA--hows the policy changes effecting the work load down there? 

That's right. This thread was about something else. :-D

That's a good question from Flynn. Any news?  :?
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 05-08-2006 -- 10:32:17
It's not the policy changes, it's the FIRES that are changing his work load.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: NRA4Life on 05-10-2006 -- 14:49:27
Flynn-
Workload is UP, morale is in the $hitter, MLC is currently auditing the lab, the lab manager (issuer of the original email) is monitoring breakroom conversations, timing breaks, etc...things couldn't be better.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 05-10-2006 -- 15:01:28
What the crap? Do you work or go to school? Your boss is a fool. They did stuff like that at Happy Valley last year and they lost 12-14 techs in 2 months. You need to let him know that you can get a job anywhere and if he runs everyone off where is he going to get a job. I wouldn't put up with that crap and I didn't. I was one that left Happy Valley because I am a man and I refuse to be treated like a child. Monitoring breakroom conversations, you ought to just kick his @$$. Well, it's obvious you have a sorry manager that does not know what he is doing. How come PMEL attracts so many of those kinds of managers? Tell him that he is your boss, not your daddy. :x
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: cs137 on 05-10-2006 -- 16:08:06
Sounds like anouther middle manager suck up idea to take a well oiled calibration lab and turn it into a calibration factory. I think that management model is for sale just like buying into the 17025 or ISO ideas. Most techs already know this stuff but the managerial staff has to pay for it. Sounds like you'll be passing out red tags and nrts'n stuff rather than approach the all mighty for more time to troubleshoot. It will be like, please, please, please sir, please let me have more time.... yea right! where's that 350 and glorious red tag..
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: docbyers on 05-10-2006 -- 17:21:23
There is a small contingent that cannot / will not be happy no matter what you do.  They installed heat sensors in the ceiling and the paranoid techs think they are cameras.  I did just hear that they easily passed the audit.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 05-10-2006 -- 20:20:55
They installed heat sensors in the ceiling and the paranoid techs think they are cameras.

That sort of thing seems to happen at every PMEL I work.

NRA- sounds like your boss is a tool.  What the hey, monitoring conversations, timing breaks?  Thats some weird shizzle.................... :evil:

Sounds like Happy Valley... :-D
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: deerhunter on 05-10-2006 -- 21:08:37
Probably a stupid question...but Happy Valley is an acronym for where?
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 05-11-2006 -- 12:07:32
happy Valley = Robins AFB typeII PMEL ( Contract ) in Warner Robins, GA
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 05-18-2006 -- 09:51:05
Metrologist Heaven= Sypris Test & Measurement ( formerly Bell Technologies ) Primary Standards Lab.

Good bosses, good people, good pay & Florida. :-D
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: bradley563 on 05-18-2006 -- 12:43:09
Are they hiring?  Cause I would like to get a job there.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 05-18-2006 -- 18:29:56
Hahaha. I love my job.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 05-23-2006 -- 23:30:25
Starbase 640= Organic Type V lab at Robins   :-o

Actually it's Starbase Alpha. Get some sleep Flynn. Starbase 640 doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 05-24-2006 -- 01:20:18
Where is StarBase Beta?
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 05-24-2006 -- 02:11:16
Starbase Beta is down the street from the ranch at Happy Valley.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 05-24-2006 -- 09:56:53
Where's StarBase Zulu? :?
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 05-24-2006 -- 20:32:58
I think that one is on another continent.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 05-25-2006 -- 00:09:00
Africa maybe? Shaka Zulu?
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 05-25-2006 -- 00:54:10
Starbase Zulu is the unofficial sequel to Shaka Zulu. It's manned by a bunch of British soldiers/metrologists. 8-)
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 05-25-2006 -- 09:54:13
Sounds like a great flick. Do the Brits attack with RG62 cables? Does the natives fight back using attenuators as darts? :?
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 05-25-2006 -- 22:16:52
I don't know. I haven't seen it yet. :-D
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 05-26-2006 -- 11:22:25
I've got to see it. :-o
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 05-26-2006 -- 16:36:46
I don't think it's been made yet. No funding. :|
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 05-28-2006 -- 02:08:36
Uh oh...we don't have to kill anyone do we? :-o
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 05-30-2006 -- 09:29:10
Flamy will take care of them with a deadly dose of conversation about crap. :evil:
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 05-31-2006 -- 00:06:43
People will run away before that happens.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 05-31-2006 -- 10:28:56
Not if he has him tied up in his bathroom. Now that statement was just gross. I take it back. :-P
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 05-31-2006 -- 20:40:07
I don't think he's capable of that.......................He'd have to sedate them first.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 06-01-2006 -- 10:02:04
That's cool Flynn, I was very busy packing this weekend. We bought a townhouse in one of those planned communities. I am moving tomorrow. I can;t wait to get out of the apartments.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 06-01-2006 -- 19:31:48
That's cool Flynn, I was very busy packing this weekend. We bought a townhouse in one of those planned communities. I am moving tomorrow. I can;t wait to get out of the apartments.

What happened to that luxury apartment you had your eye on last year? :?
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 06-05-2006 -- 10:01:35
The luxury apartments were okay, but still not enough room with two boys with high energy. They were still apartments.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 06-05-2006 -- 19:14:52
And from the townhouse, you'll move into a house with a gigantic backyard. You'll stock it with wildlife that you'll hunt on the weekends. :-D
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 06-06-2006 -- 10:11:45
Those are called neighbors. :evil:
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 06-06-2006 -- 20:21:11
Those are called neighbors. :evil:

Bad, bad Coup.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 06-07-2006 -- 09:56:15
Yes... :evil:
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 06-07-2006 -- 17:06:23
No cookie for you. :-(
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 06-07-2006 -- 17:10:50
fine, can I atleast drink the milk? :oops:
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 06-07-2006 -- 17:28:20
Sure, but only soy milk. :-o
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: docbyers on 06-07-2006 -- 17:34:48
Ever try to milk a soy plant?!?  Darned near impossible...

I was raised on a dairy farm, so I have a certain predliction for drinking whole milk, no skim, no 2%, no fat free, nothing but the real deal.  When I was first born, Dad would bring the warm milk up from the barn in a 2-quart stainless steel container; Mom would pour it directly into my bottle, and feed me while the milk was still warm.  Naturally I don't remember that, but as I mix formula for my baby at 0200 in the morning, I just shake my head and wonder if it's really any better for her...  She drinks Mommy's milk throughout the day, and has formula at night to help her (and her parents!) sleep better....

Sometimes I think progress is a good thing, but it's gone on too long...
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 06-07-2006 -- 17:38:03
My hands are too big to milk soy plants
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 06-07-2006 -- 17:43:52
You can milk a soy plant? :-o
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: docbyers on 06-07-2006 -- 17:45:40
It's like milking a cat (refer to Ben Stiller in Meet The Parents)...
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 06-07-2006 -- 17:48:09
Eeeeeeewwwwww!!!!!! :-o :-o :-o
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 06-08-2006 -- 09:48:09
I believe milking moles is harder than cats.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 06-08-2006 -- 20:18:46
Yuck!
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: NRA4Life on 06-12-2006 -- 15:46:10
One word to sum it up...OPPRESSION
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 06-12-2006 -- 21:56:53
One word to sum it up...OPPRESSION

How much longer does the company have on their contract? :?
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 06-12-2006 -- 22:06:13
We're also further inland from the hurricanes. :-D
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 06-13-2006 -- 09:12:07
Hurricanes are fun.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 06-13-2006 -- 19:42:04
Hurricanes are terrible. :-(
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 06-14-2006 -- 09:26:19
They are adrenaline rushes. :evil:
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: flew-da-coup on 06-14-2006 -- 09:26:51
Of course it sucks when your house gets sucked out to the sea.
Title: Re: Laboratory Policies
Post by: Thraxas on 06-14-2006 -- 21:14:30
It sucks when a hurricane ruins your house in any way.